[lit-ideas] Re: Disbelief

  • From: Harold Hungerford <hh@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:34:28 -0800

The retry worked for me. The reason for the =20 appears to be that I 
was using rich text instead of plain text in my original message.

hh

On Dec 13, 2004, at 4:31 PM, Harold Hungerford wrote:

> I'll try again. The culprit is the =20 in the URL.
>
> Try
>
>> <http://www.rationalistinternational.net/archive/en/rationalist_2004/
>> 137.html>
>
>
> Harold Hungerford
> On Dec 13, 2004, at 3:23 PM, Harold Hungerford wrote:
>
>> Well, somebody's off base. See this web page, where Flew insists he's
>> =20=
>>
>> still an atheist:
>>
>> <http://www.rationalistinternational.net/archive/en/rationalist_2004/
>> =20
>> 137.html>
>>
>> Harold Hungerford
>>
>> Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over
>> ferociously =20=
>>
>> between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and
>> =20=
>>
>> those who want us to obey and be humble and submit.
>>                                      -- Philip Pullman
>>
>>
>> On Dec 13, 2004, at 3:08 PM, Lawrence Helm wrote:
>>
>>> The Habermas interview with Flew at HYPERLINK
>>> "http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/"http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/ --
>>> =20=
>>
>>> very
>>> interesting.
>>>
>>>
>>> In the December issue of The Christian Century is an article 
>>> entitled,
>>> =93Americans=92 belief in God is high but nuanced, study says.=94  In
>>> =
>> it is =20
>>> poll
>>> by Darren Sherkat, Southern Illinois University; General Social =20
>>> Surveys,
>>> National Opinion Research Center:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> U.S. Belief in God:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> True Believer           64.4%
>>>
>>> Doubt Sometimes         16.6%
>>>
>>> Higher Power            8.4%
>>>
>>> Ambivalent              4.1%
>>>
>>> Agnostic                4.0%
>>>
>>> Atheist                 2.5%
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The article goes on to give some detailed information:  =93While only
>>> =
>> 53
>>> percent of Liberal Protestants (including Presbyterians and United 
>>> =20
>>> Church of
>>> Christ members) and 56 percent of Episcopalians have unwavering faith
>>> =20=
>>
>>> that
>>> God exists, fully 81 percent of Baptists and 85 percent of Mormons 
>>> =20
>>> have no
>>> doubt about God.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =93Some 65 percent of the =91moderate=92 Protestants (Methodists, =
>> Disciples =20
>>> of
>>> Christ, Brethren and Reformed) as well as Lutherans and Catholics are
>>> certain in their belief.  Those church groupings =96 plus the liberal
>>> Protestants and Episcopalians =96 all had between 19 and 23 percent =
>> who =20
>>> agreed
>>> with the statement, =91While I have doubts, I feel that I do believe 
>>> =
>> in =20
>>> God.=92
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =93Only 27 percent of Jews believe firmly that God exists, while 21
>>> =20=
>>
>>> percent
>>> picked belief-with-doubt and 22 percent agnostic.  Sixteen percent
>>> identified with the =91higher power=92 concept.=94
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I=92d be interested in seeing a correlation between this poll and =20
>>> political
>>> inclination.  Are Republicans and Conservatives mostly =93True =20
>>> Believers=94?
>>> Are Leftists mostly =93Atheists=94?  Where do Liberals fall?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A question I=92ve puzzled over is whether there is a correlation =
>> between =20
>>> lack
>>> of faith in God and a need to come up with a solution that depends 
>>> =20
>>> upon a
>>> particular social solution for mankind=92s physical welfare.  Marx is
>>> =
>> the
>>> classic example of this.  Religion is the opiate of the masses; so
>>> man =
>> =20
>>> must
>>> go ahead and figure things out and produce a paradise here on earth
>>> =20=
>>
>>> because
>>> there is no afterlife.  On the other hand, the Christian =
>> Postmillennial
>>> position anticipates that God will eventually cause Christianity to
>>> predominate throughout the entire world.  Postmillennialism and =
>> Francis
>>> Fukuyama=92s Hegelianism are not, it seems to me, in conflict.  Thus,
>>> =
>> a
>>> certain aspect of Christianity would wonder if the spread of
>>> Liberal-Democracy were God=92s work =96 comparable to the Roman
>>> Empire =
>> and =20
>>> Koine
>>> Greek being the right situation for the spread of first-century
>>> Christianity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On the other hand, Marcel Gauchet in his The Disenchantment of the 
>>> =20
>>> World, A
>>> Political History of Religion, can see Liberal-Democracy growing out
>>> =20=
>>
>>> of and
>>> replacing Christianity.  Perhaps Fukuyama would agree with Gauchet.
>>> American Christian Postmillennialists would see the spread of
>>> Liberal-Democracy as compatible with the spread of Christianity.  =20
>>> Perhaps
>>> the European model would look more like Gauchet=92s conception.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Lawrence Helm
>>>
>>> San Jacinto
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =20
>>> [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> On Behalf Of Paul Stone
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 7:27 PM
>>> To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Disbelief
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 11:36 AM 12/12/2004, you wrote:
>>>
>>>> A timely essay especially for the various levels of non-believers 
>>>> =20
>>>> among
>>>
>>>> us. It raises a number of important issues, not the least of which 
>>>> is
>>>
>>>> "organized"  religion itself...
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> TC,
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> /Steve Cameron, NJ
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On the other hand, the first sign of the apocalypse has come in the
>>>
>>> [apparent] turning of Antony Flew into a 'theist'. UGH!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> losing all hope,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ******************
>>>
>>> Paul Stone
>>>
>>> pas@xxxxxxxx
>>>
>>> Leamington, ON
>>>
>>> ******************
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --=20
>>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>>> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.2 - Release Date: 12/13/2004
>>>
>>>
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