[lit-ideas] Re: Dark Thoughts on Iraq

  • From: Judy Evans <judithevans001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:54:58 +0100

Saturday, October 1, 2005, 4:18:36 AM, Eternitytime1@xxxxxxx wrote:


Eac>> Since we are so disliked everywhere, in some respects    <g>,
Eac>> I often  think that would be not so    bad...

JE> alternatively you could look -- as of course many in the US do    -- at
> why "you" are "so disliked everywhere, in some respects", if, that    is,
> that is indeed correct.

> (You have probably not seen a full list    of countries who offered aif
> after Katrina.  Or perhaps that does not    count.)

 
Eac> Well, isn't because we meddle so much? 

yes but I want to keep "you" and "so disliked" and "everywhere" in
quotation marks, because it isn't as simple as that (*Bush* is certainly
widely disliked even in the UK, but often no more than he is disliked
by many in the US, and often, less so.)


Eac>  And, since
Eac> apparently the  'powers that be' are not able to restrain
Eac> themselves, hiding out until we can  retrain them to behave
Eac> seemed like it might make people in the rest of the world 
Eac> happier with us.

You do need to get rid of that lot!!

 
Eac> and, yes...there was a lot of support and, actually, I
Eac> think it did an  incredible amount of good in terms of those here
Eac> who DO want the U.S. to regress  back into a little world of
Eac> their own.

I hope so -- don't tell them the FDA impounded our aid and Germany's! :)
 
Eac> (That was, of course, not the intent of those who gave, but
Eac> it has  happened. It's rather interesting...)

Yes


JE> I don't know who calls you  saviours


 

 
Eac> Oh, I think we call ourselves saviors. 


right -- so you know, it's "your" problem !

Eac> No doubt no one
Eac> else does


it is not though true that all the people outside the US want it to do
nothing, many of us would like the US to do more

Eac> --but  many here in the U.S. do think that the U.S.
Eac> 'gives' a lot to other countries to  help and assist (not really
Eac> paying attention to the thought that we are all in  this world
Eac> together...

the many of whom you speak should be told what the figures actually
are and what they mean:  neither "the US" governmentally nor the US
people give all that much, comparatively speaking. (In the case of the
people, I'd say, it isn't a lack of generosity so much as the greater
difficulty of organising appeals there: here the BBC will, now and
then, give a whole evening to a telethon; all banks will take
donations without charging fees; etc..)

I omit the "giving" forced on US people by their government.  I
accept that US soldiers are being made to give their lives daily.
But that isn't what the people you're talking about have in mind.
 
Eac>> we'd
Eac>> be focusing on  our own problems and  taking care of our own
Eac>> people;

JE> I certainly hope so.  You  could start by protesting against cuts in
> Medicaid to pay for Katrina aid  relief.
  
 
Eac> MB:  Oh, there's a thought!!  <g>  Okay, so maybe I'm  the
Eac> only one who did do my part and wrote my Senator. Hard to tell. I
Eac> still  am figuring people out and am not there yet.

I am really glad you did that, Marlena.

 
 
Eac> Still, I got one fun letter in response from the one
Eac> senator in our  state who is one of the few moderate Republicans
Eac> and actually does NOT want  those sorts of cuts to happen.  He
Eac> usually loses and Bush does something to  either threaten or
Eac> punish him.

Ah -- yes.

Eac> I do hope that the other senator loses in the next election
Eac> as he is one of  the Bush Bully Boys and we have a really
Eac> possible Democratic potential in  the running. (She's currently
Eac> our state auditor--she would be a great  senator). 


sounds promising!!

Eac> I, personally, do try to do what I can do. Most of the time
Eac> I do not see  that happening too much with other people, though. 


that may be because of where you live (!!).

Eac> So, sometimes I do think that if we closed all the doors,
Eac> put up the walls  and had the Big Boys begin to focus, we'd be
Eac> better off. I think they have too  many distractions, sometimes.
Eac> Too many pots to loot--and so, one strategy would  be to remove
Eac> the temptation until they proved they could handle it 
Eac> responsibly...or something like that.
 
Eac> Kind of like taking a kid who is not able to focus (too
Eac> tired, too many  distractions, whatever) and holding his head
Eac> still and saying "Look into my  eyes." 

I'm just not sure isolationism would have that effect.

JE> we think we do reasonably well right now,  Marlena

snipe :)
 
Eac> MB:  But, wouldn't it be SO much easier without our
Eac> meddling?   What if the only choice was to have the U.S. in the
Eac> world's playground but as a  meddler or to have the U.S. hiding
Eac> out behind a wall trying to get itself put  back into shape so it
Eac> could play well with others?


you have a point.
 
Eac> Would you really want us the way we are, now?  It's not
Eac> that everyone  else does so poorly now, it's that it sometimes at
Eac> least *sounds* like everyone  would like us to just go away from
Eac> everywhere...

except that people don't want you to, say, get out of the UN, but
would like you not to trash it...
 


JE> you mean you could control your corporations better if  they were
JE> confined to the US? (now there's a millennial dream!)

 
Eac> MB:  Well, again--I do like to dream!  And, that was kind
Eac> of a  dream, I grant you.  More like a fantasy, maybe?  It would
Eac> be easier  to get control, though, if it took less time for them
Eac> to loot and ruin in a  small area and then to (hopefully) face
Eac> the consequences of their own action.


Yes -- I agree.  But they're multinationals and there's nothing that
can be done about that.
 

Eac> I think it would take some major work and, frankly, I'm not
Eac> very confident  that the selfish souls in this nation even want
Eac> to look at their actions.

I agree.



Eac> Oh, fine.  You can tell I don't have it all figured out yet!

it's impossible to figure out
 


Eac> MB:  Um. Yes...  Okay.  Kind of. It does bother me, though,
Eac> to think that people run away from their own places because life
Eac> is so  horrible there.  What I wonder is if people would stay
Eac> or come if  things in Mexico were as great as they are in Canada.
Eac> (what Paul  said)   If they had a choice of staying in a cool
Eac> place like Mexico  and living a great life would they still want
Eac> to come to the USA?  I  imagine that some would and some wouldn't.

Agreed.  But look. Some nations are wealthy by virtue of vast natural
resources, some, fairly desperately poor.  Suggesting that people in
Southern Italy or Ireland pre-EU stay there and put things right there
is not helpful (and it has been in the interests of the US not to say
it, I add).


Eac> It's either that or have all immigrant be legal and *make*
Eac> those who  are hiring the illegal immigrants pay them living
Eac> wages...even for those  horrible jobs that theoretically no one
Eac> wants to do. 


Yes.

Eac>  I  dislike knowing that they are being taken
Eac> advantage of -- that people are  having to take jobs paying them
Eac> a pittance simply because they don't want to pay  a decent wage. 
Eac> If I think about it too much, I almost go crazy...   and
Eac> sometimes if I end up going down that path, I end up thinking
Eac> about how  horrible life must be for them and their loved ones
Eac> back in Mexico--if they are  willing to live as slaves here being
Eac> taken advantage of  by people--then what is life like for those
Eac> in Mexico?  Is it  really that horrible?  Is there no one there
Eac> fighting to reform Life there  so that those who live there won't
Eac> *need* the money sent to them in order to  live a decent life?  

I honestlt don't know enough about Mexico so have simply assumed it
falls into the "lack of natural resources" category (oh wait: yes
there are people there working for reform, and, there are people there
who live good lives).


JE> like the Irish and the Italians? perhaps you  should send them home

Eac> MB: Well, I'm not sure we had too many standards  regarding
Eac> immigration at that point for so many to get in illegally. I
Eac> thought  many were able to get here legally...

Yes -- I wasn't thinking about the legality of it, the point about
staying in one's own country to try to make things better there seems
to me independent of that.



Eac> <g> No only to China...I am dreaming of going to the UK for
Eac> the World  Jamboree in 2007, though.  Or, just to come on a
Eac> scouting pilgrimage...we  can stay in Lord Baden-Powell's home,
Eac> spend the night at Brownsea, etc.  It  would be so grand...(But
Eac> we have Seabase this summer first)

I had to Google Brownsea! Nice -- Poole is very nice anyway (it's
getting more and more fashionable and expensive!, but you won't need
to worry about that if you have Brownsea.

(That reminds me.  This is an expensive place.  Some US students in my
local Starbucks were so horrified by the prices they just got one
coffee -- between the 3 of them -- to go!)


 
Eac> MB:  Since this is MY fantasy, I think I can say that there would  be!!  
<g>

My mother was born in the US so I should be let in!! -- and there are
cousins there still -- but my politics would tell against me... so I
will use you as sponsor :)
 



JE> quite
 


 
Eac> MB:  <g>  I do like the way you write!

or snipe :)

Eac>> There  is, as you all know, the part of me which IS an
Eac>>  isolationist.   and, since I cannot fix everything (yet <g>),  I'd
Eac>> sometimes like to scale  down so that we can fix what needs  to be
Eac>> fixed...feed those in our own  neighborhoods,  etc.

JE> which would be a damn good idea.
 
 
 
Eac> MB:  Finally!!  I really needed some words of affirmation
Eac> about  some of my thoughts!  (Even if they were written when I
Eac> was mulling things  over and pondering Life and People and
Eac> such...)

you should probably read more by Europeans (!) concerned about poverty
in the US.  I realise it isn't that palatable to hear it from the
outside, still, it would affirm your views.
 

JE> so who are all these people who keep  telling you how horrible
JE> Americans are?

Eac> MB:  That's an  interesting statement.  We hear it here SO
Eac> much--mostly from people from  other countries who are visiting
Eac> or working, I suppose. 

but do they tell you they think Americans are horrible? or do they,
rather, tell you about dislike of "the US" (i.e. Bush and current US
policy) in their country?


Eac>  (I think Andreas  has even mentioned that
Eac> in regards to those in his area, especially)    It's on the news,
Eac> in the papers, people say that in regards to what it is like
Eac>                       
Eac> when they visit overseas, etc.  My friend who is in Italy and
Eac> moving back  to NYC says that she pretends to be Italian alot...

I hear this all the time but think people are getting (and being
given) the wrong idea.  I know some US people visiting here are
advised to say they're Canadian, but I do wonder whether the advice is
slightly silly or even malign (malign in that it's intended to make US
people feel insecure as soon as they get here).  I bet the US people
living here don't give that advice, and they certainly don't tell
people they're Canadian!


J> like you did till Pearl Harbor.

Eac> MB:  HEY!  

lol sorry about that

Eac>  Okay, fine.  But, look what we have done to
Eac> this world SINCE THEN??   What's the 'good' of what we have done
Eac> since then?  I don't think that  those of us who communicate in
Eac> the 'words of affirmation' get to hear that very  often...(and
Eac> that is one of my primary ways of communication...sad to  say.)


First I think you do get some, second I do think it's best not to
rely on getting it! (I suggest you look at some of Tim Garton Ash's
writing; he gives credit where credit is due._

Eac>> isn't that the way of Confucius?  To take care of 'the 
Eac>> family' only?  


J> doesn't sound much like it  to me
 
>  
 
Eac> MB:  Well, that was what I was told...I guess I'll have to
Eac> do try to  search out a reference?  Or does anyone else who might
Eac> have read this far  have a better understanding of whether or not
Eac> that is the Chinese/Confucius  standard?

I'll see what I can find
 


JE> yes well, I'm an  internationalist.

(but one who does not want to obliterate localities and localisms --
mind you, it depends on the "localism"!)
 
 
Eac> MB:  <G>   Yes, well.  There's a thought...I  suppose I'm a
Eac> BIT of one. Or maybe that was my past life. Hard to say since 
Eac> I'm not sure I remember it very well...   Still, you do expand my
Eac> horizons so that is surely something-and I do think it positive.

so I should keep sniping away? :)

Judy
 




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