[lit-ideas] Re: Dark Thoughts on Iraq
- From: Eternitytime1@xxxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:44:07 EDT
Hi, Eric,
I'll share my thoughts!
In a message dated 9/28/2005 4:24:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
mr.eric.yost@xxxxxxxxx writes:
Unless I also post some dark thoughts about Iraq, people will think
I'm a full-time (instead of temp) swinish hack. So here goes.
*Must an armed, fanatic minority can successfully impose its will on
a cowed majority?
Must they? No. Will they? Maybe. I think it is still a bit too early to
tell...
not to mention--the 'book' has not been completed and the end of History has
not occurred.
People *can* and *do* change situations--even if things look bleak and even
if the armed fanatic minority successfully imposes its will--it does not
necessarily mean it will be that way *forever*
Life and history (to me) seems fairly fluid and the concept of change (to
me) appears to be real and dynamic.
*Is there anything better than the Bush plan: tough it out
with an average of 2 or 3 of our men murdered every day while we
train the Iraqis to take over their own future as soon as possible?
Absolutely. The method towards success was, in fact, spoken of in (I
think--can get the reference and article if you would like...) Foreign Policy
some
time ago (and they mentioned and sent it out again via email not long ago)
(I had, actually, heard of this from a retired military person I know--who
had been frustrated, even, with some of the same sort [as well as active
military] with how much in Afghanistan has been done.
The basic idea (and this IS what our military really had wanted to do--not
arguing whether or not we should or should not be in Iraq...but if we were
going to be there, there was a certain way to manage and accomplish the
situation)
Think of landing in a spot. You 'take over' that spot and make sure it is
protected, guarded. You rebuild that spot so that the civilians in that spot do
NOT have their infrastructure ripped apart--and you only do the spot you can
handle, watch over, protect, etc.
After that spot, its civilians, etc. is secure, rebuilt and there is a clear
understanding that the intent is NOT to destroy or damage but to bring an
ultimate constructive 'good' to the land, the people, the place--you very
slowly
enlarge the spot. And, then repeat.
and repeat. VERY SLOWLY and carefully crafting the ever-enlarging protected,
taken-care of civilians, infrastructure, etc.
The biggest problem with this plan is that those in charge of the Bush's
plan of attack wanted the 'shock and awe'. The military did not want to go that
direction and there WAS a different plan. They, many of them, really tried
to push this systematic concept which would have been carefully crafted. It
would have, however, taken more people and more time [though, as it happens,
it may not have taken more time--and it definitely would have saved an
incredible amount of lives and created the 'goodwill' that *might* have made
the
whole invasion a bit more palatable....(for people like me who were very upset
at the whole war - believing that if there is conflict that there are so many
creative people/methods of resolving issues that war in the traditional sense
is simply not something that is generally necessary.)
The article in Foreign Affairs (or was it Policy? I may have to go look it
up after all...) does not talk about this--but my friend who went over to both
Iraq and Afghanistan several times told me (shortly after the War in Iraq
began) that 'you would not believe how many careers are being ruined.' When I
asked about this--he said that the military at certain levels who were very
aware of the problems that the Bush plan was going (and beginning) to cause
[not just in regards to military casualties, but to civilian deaths and ill
will] were trying to do what they could to NOT have to go the direction they
were
being told to do.
Would it be possible to try to go back and do that sort of method?
Probably. Would take even more of a commitment and (my thought) some major
revamping
of how things are structured there--but I'm sure that if one got together all
the people whose careers were ruined <wry look>, they'd probably be able to
come up with some sort of strategic insight.
What the Iraqis will make of it is anyone's guess.
It's very difficult to know, that is true. But, that can be rather
exciting--in time, maybe they will be able to take the 'good' from all possible
scenarios and mesh them together.
Since we do NOT KNOW--we can hold that tension of the opposites and not go
down a horrid negative road, too. (I do not necessarily think it is best to
go down the la-la-land of how everything is going to be wonderful, either. I
think and hope that all involved will be prepared for all possibilities and
create positively from that information.)
You are right--we do not KNOW...but that is not necessarily 'bad'!
*Will America have the political/societal will to last over the long
haul? Has Binladen read us correctly there?
Depends on what we end up doing...I am concerned at how we are doing in
Iraq--If we stay the course in the same way, it would be healthier for the
Iraqis
(I think) if the USA and others left ... (of course, I do not know how that
will impact on our ability to pull oil from the area...On the other hand,
surely Bush is going to stop using Suburban gas-guzzlers for his Secret Service
and use the Ford Escape Hybrids--that will help.)
*Will my fellow liberals prefer to have Bush fail (as Paul Stone
thinks) rather than let Iraqi freedom win? If we do prefer to see
Bush fail, won't his failure be OUR failure? If Bush fails, why do
my fellow liberals think that they live on a special reservation
insulated from all the repercussions of history?
No. I think the two scenarios that I would prefer are:
1) we go back to the discarded Plan A (with whatever adaptations need to be
made) and really focus on rebuilding the infrastructure that we destroyed--if
that means we pull into a little circle and start 'over' then we do that--us
and the Iraqis [we almost have to stay there and do this as a 'penance' for
having wrecked it in the first place. We broke it/we made the mess--so I look
at the 'best' way to understand WHY we stay is that we need to fix what we
broke--we need to repair the infrastructure we destroyed. Example of "natural
consequences" in terms of 'discipline', in a way. For those who don't know,
that would be what you would do if you had a kid who broke/made a mess in your
home--the healthiest way to both solve the problem and teach at the same
time is NOT to spank and send to the corner or not be allowed to hang out with
[potential] friends. BUT to be given a dustpan and broom/towel and clean it
up. In my house. Actually, since in our house we operate on the principle
that 'there but for the grace of g-d go I", <g> we ALL have done this for and
with each other--and so often all in the same room would pitch in to fix what
was broken or clean up the mess. But, especially the one who broke/made the
mess is aware of what was done to cause the mess--and *has to apologize*,
too. I think we ought to apologize and then explain how we would try to
fix/clean up--and (one hopes) would be given the opportunity to clean up what
we
broke and messed up...
(It might also help with keeping those who ram/are bullies to learn and
grow...not sure if just heading home/being spanked/going to the corner
necessarily teaches and causes personal and collective growth and development.
__________________--
*Ralph Peters talks about a "strategic raid" strategy, punitive
expeditions for specific enemy crimes or attacks, which has a
definite 19th century British imperial feel to it. Is this the best
future strategy? It is not too satisfying as a cure, especially when
you work enemy WMDs into the mix--they nuke NYC so we nuke Tehran?
who'll lose more with that math?
MB--Have been reading an interesting book on Strategic Planning for Success
which talks about lots of different things--one that I have found intriguing
is how many companies/corporate types are now beginning to look at things in
a duel manner--beyond the 'short-term' vision...to look at the societal
impacts of our decisions as well as the corporate impacts.
So, I would say that for those who have not evolved into being able to think
beyond just concrete thinking and go into more abstract thought--yes, it
would probably be satisfying. Kind of like it is satisfying to make a million
dollars but not really care/understand the impact of not paying a living wage
to
your suppliers/workers has on the long-term effects of creative thought
being drawn to your company...
_____________________________
*Will the US eventually have to revert to the fortress America type
isolationism? Vichy Europe is almost gone already. They'll be
majority Moslem within thirty years, assuming they don't have a
thirty years wars type religious civil war. Yet I think they're
more likely to just quietly surrender to the islamofascist
inevitability.
Here again (to me) is the whole 'either/or' kind of thought. Yes, if your
only choice is to either have a fortress mentality or to surrender and lose
the identity of a certain historical and real number of People (who are, truly,
as valuable and worthy as any other culture...)
There are all sorts of methods of Honoring Each Other that might occur.
Granted, it does seem that people (whether in charge or not) seem to bounce
from
one to the other (and,yes, each has its positives and each has its negatives)
I'd rather, again--look for that third way out--which takes work, education
and a willingness to learn the concept of *respect*--for the fortress often
comes because of a woundedness and a way to protect oneself...and the other is
one being a victim and the other a victimizer.
Tough to learn 'the third way out', though.
_________________
*And by that time, we're likely to be an economic colony of Red
China, courtesy of the globalists.
ONLY if the 'globalists' do not get a conscience and make positive healthy
choices for those who work for them, those who do business with them, etc.
Globalization is not *necessarily* 'bad' or 'evil'. It's when it is managed
and handled with disrespect and a cavalier manner towards all that the
company/situation is going to impact.
and, remember--China itself may be kind of full of a bunch of selfish
leaders...but Life is all about Change...and the only thing that does not
change is
that everything changes...
Looking at the beginning of Autumn and a Season of Change,
Marlena in Missouri
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