[list_indonesia] [ppiindia] Man of many colours

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http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/738/re7.htm

       14 - 20 April 2005
      Issue No. 738
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Published in Cairo by AL-AHRAM established in 1875

        Man of many colours
        Not always popular but adept at survival, Ahmed Chalabi talks to Mo=
hamed Al-Anwar in Baghdad=20

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               Click to view caption=20
              Chalabi at his home in Baghdad=20
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        Leader of the Iraqi National Congress Party, Ahmed Chalabi, may be =
a controversial figure, but he is also a force to contend with in today's I=
raq. He came to the spotlight as a staunch supporter of the US invasion and=
 has since continued to influence the course of events.=20

        Chalabi was born in Baghdad on 30 October 1944 to an influential Ir=
aqi family. His grandfather was member of Iraq's first ever National Assemb=
ly and education minister. His father was a member of parliament, minister,=
 and speaker of the senate. His brother was a member of parliament and mini=
ster of economy, agriculture, and communication until 1958.

        Chalabi studied in Baghdad, the UK and the US. He was a professor o=
f mathematics at the American University in Beirut. He lived in Jordan from=
 1977 to 1989, where he founded the Bank of Petra. He then moved to the UK,=
 returning to Iraq in 1992. He stayed in Iraq until 1997, during which time=
 he became an outspoken opponent of Saddam Hussein. After that he left for =
work in the UK and the US. He came back to northern Iraq, via Iran, in Janu=
ary 2003.

        How do you assess the current situation in Iraq?=20

        I see the current situation as tragic. The Iraqi people are living =
a long-running tragedy because of the legacy of the old regime, the America=
ns and their actions that are unsuitable for Iraqi society, and the weaknes=
s of national resolve.

        How do you respond to rumours that a US intelligence officer has be=
en, and still is, in charge of you and your security and is always by your =
side?=20

        Utterly untrue. We used to have Colonel Seale, who is now a militar=
y attach=E9 at the US Embassy in Cairo. He was appointed by the US secretar=
y of defence as coordinator of relations between us and Central Command dur=
ing the war. He came to us in northern Iraq in March 2003 and left five mon=
ths later. My position depends on how I see Iraq's interests. I was accused=
 of extremism and my relations with the Americans shifted. The only explana=
tion is that when something imperils Iraq's interests I don't accept it. Th=
ey broke into my home at one point because I began to question Paul Bremer,=
 the former US civil administrator about the manner in which Iraq's money w=
as being dispensed. I also insisted that an investigation be conducted into=
 the oil-for- food programme and disclosed what may seem as the seeds of th=
e recent UN report on financial irregularities in that programme.

        Does Iraq and the new government intend to keep paying compensation=
 the UN Security Council approved for individuals, institutions and countri=
es harmed by the 1990-91 Gulf War?=20

        Some $17 billion have gone to the compensation fund, from a total o=
f $64 billion that was the revenue of Iraqi oil exports between 1996 and 20=
03. Many individuals took money they didn't deserve. I'd say the Iraqi peop=
le were violated once by Saddam and again by the international community; t=
hat their life, wealth and living needs were mishandled. This situation rem=
ained unchanged through the corruption under Bremer and also under Iyad All=
awi, who came afterwards. Administrative corruption turned into a worse pro=
blem than the security crisis, one that actually exacerbates the security c=
risis. What kind of compensation is this? I call on the international commu=
nity to be fair to the Iraqi people. My position is that we respect interna=
tional resolutions but in return demand justice and accountability for thos=
e who stole Iraq's money.

        Many were puzzled by your idea of dialogue with the Iraqi resistanc=
e. You used the word "resistance" and some say that this is just another ma=
noeuvre on your part.=20

        Nothing is puzzling here. There are people in Iraq who believe that=
 the Americans had no good reason to invade and must be resisted until they=
 leave. These people are not Baathists and they are not terrorists. They do=
 not kill Iraqis nor do they blow up mosques, schools and churches. They ha=
ve their own views and we must talk to them. We did the same with the Al-Sa=
dr movement during and following the crisis in Najaf, and the dialogue was =
successful. Al-Sadr's supporters became part of the political process and n=
ow have 23 members in the National Assembly. Now we talk to others, in orde=
r to persuade them that resistance is not only a matter of taking up arms. =
There are political and other methods, including the use of all possible me=
ans, through dialogue, with legitimacy, to end the state of affairs that fo=
llowed Saddam's fall.=20

        Some say that the de-baathification Committee, which you formed, is=
 just settling accounts; a grave error at a time when Iraq needs reconcilia=
tion.=20

        The number of people who must be taken out of public life is no mor=
e than 10,000. No random actions are taking place. The Baath Eradication Co=
mmittee has not detained any Baathist and has no power to do so. On the con=
trary, it protected the Baathists and saved them from public wrath. The Baa=
th Party has committed crimes and accountability is in order. This is the p=
roblem now between Sunni Arabs and the rest of the Iraqis.

        You're against the resurrection of the Baath Party within the polit=
ical process in a new Iraq?=20

        The Baath is a chauvinist and racist party, just as the fascists an=
d Nazis were in the 1920s and 1930s. If you read the minutes of the meeting=
s at which the issue of Arab unity was discussed in 1963, and the exchanges=
 between President Gamal Abdel-Nasser and the Baath Party in Iraq and Syria=
 in 1964, you'd be appalled at the way the Baathists treated the late Egypt=
ian president. They called for unity and then staged the secession in Syria=
. As for democracy and the political process in Iraq, isn't there democracy=
 in Germany? And yet is the Nazi party allowed back?

        How do you view foreign military presence in Iraq?=20

        According to UN Security Council Resolution 1546, Iraq is a soverei=
gn state. There are multinational forces in Iraq and I want these forces to=
 be of assistance to the Iraqi government. I want their role be specified a=
nd regulated in an agreement. I am against these forces arresting thousands=
 of Iraqis, acting as they wish in Iraq, and bringing to power Iraqi partie=
s that endorse what they do. The current situation is not one of occupation=
, but the Iraqi government is accepting acts by foreign forces that give th=
e impression of occupation. The occupation is over, but the context in whic=
h foreign forces operate has not changed.

        When should the foreign forces leave?=20

        Before asking this question one has to ask about the rehabilitation=
 of Iraqi security services, both the army and police. The Americans are un=
fortunately in charge of the rehabilitation. I want a bigger role for the I=
raqi government in rebuilding these institutions. The government should be =
in control of security services, army, and intelligence, from recruitment t=
o training, equipment and deployment. Secondly, total control of public exp=
enditure by the government is a must. Thirdly, control of administration by=
 the government is essential, through the dismissal of the advisers who wer=
e appointed by the occupation authorities and who are still acting as they =
did in the past. Iraq should control its foreign policy. I called on the US=
 Embassy to vacate the Iraqi presidential palace, for the latter is the cou=
ntry's symbol of sovereignty. I called for ending the presence of foreign s=
ecurity service companies that operate in Iraq employing 22,000 people.

        Do you use any of them?=20

        Not one. All my bodyguards are Iraqis. So that you know, each one o=
f those 22,000 makes $1,000 a day. This is $22 million a day, or $7 billion=
 a year. Why is that necessary? They are not answerable to anyone and move =
around bearing weapons in a provocative manner.

        Some believe that the United Iraqi Alliance (UIA), of which you are=
 part, is short-lived and going to collapse. What is your comment?=20

        The UIA contains conflicting and competitive parties within its ran=
ks. It has lasted so far without divisions, but there are ideological and i=
ntellectual differences among various parties. With political deftness, it =
is possible to control the ideological differences and hold the UIA togethe=
r. If selfish partisan attitudes were to prevail, the parties would drift a=
part. So far this hasn't happened and we're trying to keep the UIA vibrant =
and alive.

        Many believe that Iraq's new leaders, including yourself, are respo=
nsible for the spread of sectarianism. Can you comment on the dialogue you'=
re conducting with the Association of Muslim Scholars?=20

        The dialogue is continuing. The Sunni Arab figures that joined the =
UIA did so as a result of the dialogue the Shia Political Council held with=
 them. We're all Iraqis. We're holding dialogue with them. We don't want se=
ctarianism in Iraq, because the building of a new Iraq mustn't take place o=
n a sectarian or factional basis.

        But the Political Council, of which you're part, is created on a fa=
ctional basis.=20

        No, it was created because in the past the Shia was too shy to admi=
t that there was a sectarian political problem. As for fuelling sectarianis=
m and us being responsible, the answer is easy. We fight sectarianism throu=
gh convincing components of the Iraqi people that they all have the right t=
o be in power and that no one is excluded -- the evidence being that Jalal =
Talabani became president of Iraq. Despite all allegations, we're keeping I=
raq united, and this is something I hope people will understand.

        Media campaigns have recently targeted the Iraqi public relative to=
 their perception of Arabs. Who is responsible for such campaigns?=20

        Believe me, I have no idea. I am against those campaigns and call f=
or the restoration of normal ties between Iraq and Arab countries. You may =
say that the Iraqis are overcompensating for Saddam's deceptive pro-Arab sl=
ogans. This does not justify what is happening, but might explain it. Sadda=
m used to give the Arabs privileges in Iraq while depriving the Iraqis of s=
imilar privileges. There is a reaction in the street and it should be conta=
ined. We cannot turn our backs on our Arab milieu.

        When will Saddam's trial begin?=20

        I cannot give you an exact date, but in my opinion this case has be=
en delayed for too long already. The trial must take place because it will =
unify the Iraqi people. I call on the National Assembly to amend the law th=
at was passed to prosecute Saddam, so that it becomes more practical and le=
gitimate. The law should have the stamp of the National Assembly, otherwise=
 it would be a law passed under occupation. Incidentally, I am not involved=
 with the trial.

        You said you met Saddam in jail.=20

        I didn't say so. Only the day he was detained I saw him and didn't =
talk to him. I just looked. I was half a metre away from him and did not ta=
lk to him.

        Most of Iraq's new leaders, including yourself, hold foreign passpo=
rts. Do you have a comment on this?=20

        When the old regime prevented us from using Iraqi passports and wit=
hdrew them we took passports from other countries to be able to travel, not=
 for any other reason. Patriotism is not a piece of paper. Had we wanted to=
 live in other countries, we would have stayed there. But we came to Iraq.
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