[LRflex] Re: ...M8 Photos & Infra-Red (for Ted)

Doug,

Yes, the time has come (and probably past!) for Leica to redefine  
what constitutes a "camera."

Let us hope.

Bill


On Nov 23, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Douglas Herr wrote:

> Bill,
>
> Great minds think alike.  See
>
> <http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/10-2006/msg00160.html>
>
> Doug Herr
> Birdman of Sacramento
> http://www.wildlightphoto.com
>
>
> On Nov 23, 2006, at 10:03 AM, William Abbott wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> In adversity (i.e. the M8 IR problem) there is opportunity, if it is
>> recognized.
>>
>> What I am about to write could be considered a rant so to be safe,
>> and to forewarn everybody, let me turn the Rant Button to "On" and
>> continue. Remember, the red Rant light is flashing. Please exit here
>> if you'd prefer not to listen. Thanks.
>>
>> Leica has "generally" upgraded usability features like control
>> placement and capability features like highest shutter speed only
>> when it infrequently changed camera body models. The most changeable
>> item in the total Leica camera system was one that could be changed
>> at will by the user, the film.
>>
>> Granted, Leica does make changes within a model design if forced to
>> do so, like the change in the early R8s, if I have that story
>> straight, and there may be others. It leads to multiple populations
>> of the "same" (not same!) article, which further leads to
>> configuration management and logistics challenges, but the means to
>> manage these have become finely developed in our digital world.
>>
>> The digital world is different and other camera makers (you know who
>> they are) have kept the same system as Leica's, described above, but
>> they have adopted a continual camera system upgrade policy by
>> instituting a rapid camera body obsolescence policy, changing models
>> at the drop of a hat, the antithesis of the Leica camera body change
>> policy. Buyers seem to  tolerate it.
>>
>> Leica is part way to adopting a continual upgrade policy when it
>> changes firmware for a camera body model to introduce improvements,
>> although it is learning that such "improvements" can introduce
>> unwanted additional problems, a well know fact of life in the aero
>> industry.
>>
>> Where Leica could shine is to make an M8, say, that has readily
>> (maybe factory, maybe dealer) changeable digital "film," i.e.,
>> changeable computer, firmware and sensor. Both of those items are
>> where technological development has occurred and will occur in the
>> future. Bet on it.
>>
>> To summarize: The old camera is just a box to hold shutter, lens and
>> film, the latter changeable. The digital camera is just a box to hold
>> shutter, lens and digital "film," i.e.,the  computer and its
>> operating system (micro-Linux,etc.), its firmware, and the sensor.
>>
>> Leica needs to do the system analysis and redraw their demarcation
>> between their camera "system" and the digital film "system," much
>> like the MF people have done with changeable MF digital backs and
>> software for Hasselblad and other MF cameras. It could be a powerful
>> feature in the M9 (or M8 Mod 1) and R10, IMHO.
>>
>> What I am proposing is this: That Leica build range finder and SLR
>> "devices" that contain a power supply and shutter and which will each
>> accommodate the full range (or most) of Leica lenses, with changeable
>> digital systems of sensor, computer, and firmware.
>>
>> The big plus is that latter could vary in technical capability (and
>> cost!) to suit various photography needs, from low resolution b&w to
>> high resolution, very fast, multiple exposure color.
>>
>> To do this would "simply" be (which means it is not simple!) a matter
>> of system design, configuration management, and creative engineering,
>> the same things Leica has been known for in the past. Will they do
>> it? I don't know, but I hope so. Their lenses deserve it.
>>
>> The Rant Button now set to "Off" and the Rant light has stopped
>> flashing.
>>
>> Thanks for listening.
>>
>> As ever,
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 23, 2006, at 8:30 AM, David Young wrote:
>>
>>> Ted (who has trouble counting, early in the morning, asked:
>>>
>>>
>>>> David I have to ask one question about this IR stuff?
>>>>
>>>> Where does one find this happening and under what light
>>>> conditions?. Sorry 2
>>>> questions
>>>>
>>>> ted
>>>
>>> Good Mornin' Ted!
>>>
>>> The problem is that Leica, for whatever reason, neglected to put a
>>> sufficiently strong IR filter in front of the M8's sensor.  (The M8
>>> does have an IR cutoff filter coated onto the sensor's protective
>>> plate. The problem is that it is not strong enough, and still passes
>>> significant amounts of IR.)  This means that when you photograph
>>> black objects (black absorbs and radiates heat faster than other
>>> colours) which are substantially warmer that their surrounding
>>> objects (Black pants or T-shirts on a warm day might be a good
>>> example), show up as a blue-black or even deep purple.
>>>
>>> This happens because the IR radiation is picked up, along with the
>>> visible light. The IR (which is invisible to the naked eye) makes  
>>> the
>>> image slightly 'overexposed' in those spots, thus lightening the
>>> image.  Because of the nature of the Bayer filter, the result is not
>>> just a wee bit lighter, but a small colour shift.
>>>
>>> As for the severity of the problem... I took hundreds of shots with
>>> the two M8's I've tried (one of which I believe you also had a  
>>> chance
>>> to use), and not found the problem.  Others, like Tina Manley, do  
>>> not
>>> seem to have any problems with it, either; while others, on various
>>> lists, are reporting automated corrections are possible in C1, the
>>> software which shipped with the camera.   Still, some feel that this
>>> is a monumental problem.
>>>
>>> Certainly, it is a problem which never should have occurred, for ALL
>>> sensors are IR sensitive, and the wavelength response of each one is
>>> well known to all camera makers - including Leica.
>>>
>>> There has been a ton of discussion on this, primarily on the LUG, as
>>> there are more rangefinder users there.  There have also been sample
>>> photos posted there, but a quick scan of the LUG archives yielded
>>> nothing after October...and the discussions have all been this
>>> month.  You're on your own, there!
>>>
>>> An extreme example of the problem can be seen on the web page of  
>>> that
>>> paragon of accurate info, Pop Photo:
>>>
>>> http://www.popphoto.com/popularphotographyfeatures/3403/marooned-
>>> leica-lovers.html
>>>
>>> A better description of the problem (though with what are, I think,
>>> somewhat misleading photos), can be found at:
>>>
>>> http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/free/Infrared/InfraredContamination/
>>> InfraredContamination.html
>>>
>>> There are, undoubtedly, better examples of the problem out there,  
>>> but
>>> these are the ones I could quickly find.  A few minutes with Google
>>> might do you well.
>>>
>>> The unofficial (and I stress - unofficial) response from Leica was
>>> reported this morning, by Bill Abbott, and is, essentially, as
>>> follows:
>>>
>>>> 1. The "Banding" and "Mirror/Ghost" effects have been thoroughly
>>>> investigated and the root cause has been identified and eliminated.
>>>> The remedy will enable every M8 to meet and exceed Leica  
>>>> performance
>>>> standards. All customers that have purchased and taken delivery of
>>>> an M8 will be entitled to an upgrade performed in Solms, free of
>>>> charge. Specific measures will be taken to enhance customer loyalty
>>>> that will be outlined in detail in the memo's issued Monday. In
>>>> summary, every one of these customers will be entitled to  
>>>> purchase a
>>>> new M lens at a 30% discount directly from the factory in Solms.
>>>>
>>>> 2. The above average sensitivity for infrared light can be
>>>> compensated by using an IR filter. Leica will make available two
>>>> free IR filters of any size (there are 7 filter sizes for the
>>>> current M lenses) for M8 purchasers. Delivery of these free of
>>>> charge IR filters is to commence in February, 2007.
>>>
>>> So, the good news is that everyone will get two free filters...  
>>> which
>>> "should" handle the majority of any one users's lenses.  These will
>>> undoubtedly be combination UV/IR  low pass filters.  The bad  
>>> news, is
>>> that you'll need one for every lens you own, if you don't want to
>>> have to bother swapping filters around!  That, and your camera will
>>> need a quick trip to Solms (or, possibly, New Jersey)!
>>>
>>> Apparently, shipments of the M8 will resume sometime next week.
>>>
>>> Whether these measures will be accepted by the Leica community or,
>>> for that matter, buyers now coming to Leica gear for the first time,
>>> will remain to be seen.
>>>
>>> Personally, I think that Leica should be exchanging the sensors when
>>> they recall the cameras to Solms to fix the banding problem.  This
>>> would be a more expensive solution, but one which will do a lot more
>>> to solve Leica's image problem.
>>>
>>> In my crystal ball, I see am M8.2, with a "real" IR filter  
>>> installed,
>>> in Leica's future!
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> David Young,
>>> Logan Lake, CANADA
>>>
>>> Wildlife Photographs: http://www.telyt.com/
>>> Personal Web-pages: http://www3.telus.net/~telyt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------
>>> Unsubscribe or change to/from Digest Mode at:
>>>     http://www3.telus.net/~telyt/lrflex.htm
>>> Archives are at:
>>>     http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/
>>
>> ------
>> Unsubscribe or change to/from Digest Mode at:
>>     http://www3.telus.net/~telyt/lrflex.htm
>> Archives are at:
>>     http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/
>>
>>
>
> ------
> Unsubscribe or change to/from Digest Mode at:
>     http://www3.telus.net/~telyt/lrflex.htm
> Archives are at:
>     http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/

------
Unsubscribe or change to/from Digest Mode at:
    http://www3.telus.net/~telyt/lrflex.htm
Archives are at:
    http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/

Other related posts: