[LRflex] Re: ...M8 Photos & Infra-Red (for Ted)

Bill,

Great minds think alike.  See

<http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/10-2006/msg00160.html>

Doug Herr
Birdman of Sacramento
http://www.wildlightphoto.com


On Nov 23, 2006, at 10:03 AM, William Abbott wrote:

> David,
>
> In adversity (i.e. the M8 IR problem) there is opportunity, if it is
> recognized.
>
> What I am about to write could be considered a rant so to be safe,
> and to forewarn everybody, let me turn the Rant Button to "On" and
> continue. Remember, the red Rant light is flashing. Please exit here
> if you'd prefer not to listen. Thanks.
>
> Leica has "generally" upgraded usability features like control
> placement and capability features like highest shutter speed only
> when it infrequently changed camera body models. The most changeable
> item in the total Leica camera system was one that could be changed
> at will by the user, the film.
>
> Granted, Leica does make changes within a model design if forced to
> do so, like the change in the early R8s, if I have that story
> straight, and there may be others. It leads to multiple populations
> of the "same" (not same!) article, which further leads to
> configuration management and logistics challenges, but the means to
> manage these have become finely developed in our digital world.
>
> The digital world is different and other camera makers (you know who
> they are) have kept the same system as Leica's, described above, but
> they have adopted a continual camera system upgrade policy by
> instituting a rapid camera body obsolescence policy, changing models
> at the drop of a hat, the antithesis of the Leica camera body change
> policy. Buyers seem to  tolerate it.
>
> Leica is part way to adopting a continual upgrade policy when it
> changes firmware for a camera body model to introduce improvements,
> although it is learning that such "improvements" can introduce
> unwanted additional problems, a well know fact of life in the aero
> industry.
>
> Where Leica could shine is to make an M8, say, that has readily
> (maybe factory, maybe dealer) changeable digital "film," i.e.,
> changeable computer, firmware and sensor. Both of those items are
> where technological development has occurred and will occur in the
> future. Bet on it.
>
> To summarize: The old camera is just a box to hold shutter, lens and
> film, the latter changeable. The digital camera is just a box to hold
> shutter, lens and digital "film," i.e.,the  computer and its
> operating system (micro-Linux,etc.), its firmware, and the sensor.
>
> Leica needs to do the system analysis and redraw their demarcation
> between their camera "system" and the digital film "system," much
> like the MF people have done with changeable MF digital backs and
> software for Hasselblad and other MF cameras. It could be a powerful
> feature in the M9 (or M8 Mod 1) and R10, IMHO.
>
> What I am proposing is this: That Leica build range finder and SLR
> "devices" that contain a power supply and shutter and which will each
> accommodate the full range (or most) of Leica lenses, with changeable
> digital systems of sensor, computer, and firmware.
>
> The big plus is that latter could vary in technical capability (and
> cost!) to suit various photography needs, from low resolution b&w to
> high resolution, very fast, multiple exposure color.
>
> To do this would "simply" be (which means it is not simple!) a matter
> of system design, configuration management, and creative engineering,
> the same things Leica has been known for in the past. Will they do
> it? I don't know, but I hope so. Their lenses deserve it.
>
> The Rant Button now set to "Off" and the Rant light has stopped
> flashing.
>
> Thanks for listening.
>
> As ever,
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> On Nov 23, 2006, at 8:30 AM, David Young wrote:
>
>> Ted (who has trouble counting, early in the morning, asked:
>>
>>
>>> David I have to ask one question about this IR stuff?
>>>
>>> Where does one find this happening and under what light
>>> conditions?. Sorry 2
>>> questions
>>>
>>> ted
>>
>> Good Mornin' Ted!
>>
>> The problem is that Leica, for whatever reason, neglected to put a
>> sufficiently strong IR filter in front of the M8's sensor.  (The M8
>> does have an IR cutoff filter coated onto the sensor's protective
>> plate. The problem is that it is not strong enough, and still passes
>> significant amounts of IR.)  This means that when you photograph
>> black objects (black absorbs and radiates heat faster than other
>> colours) which are substantially warmer that their surrounding
>> objects (Black pants or T-shirts on a warm day might be a good
>> example), show up as a blue-black or even deep purple.
>>
>> This happens because the IR radiation is picked up, along with the
>> visible light. The IR (which is invisible to the naked eye) makes the
>> image slightly 'overexposed' in those spots, thus lightening the
>> image.  Because of the nature of the Bayer filter, the result is not
>> just a wee bit lighter, but a small colour shift.
>>
>> As for the severity of the problem... I took hundreds of shots with
>> the two M8's I've tried (one of which I believe you also had a chance
>> to use), and not found the problem.  Others, like Tina Manley, do not
>> seem to have any problems with it, either; while others, on various
>> lists, are reporting automated corrections are possible in C1, the
>> software which shipped with the camera.   Still, some feel that this
>> is a monumental problem.
>>
>> Certainly, it is a problem which never should have occurred, for ALL
>> sensors are IR sensitive, and the wavelength response of each one is
>> well known to all camera makers - including Leica.
>>
>> There has been a ton of discussion on this, primarily on the LUG, as
>> there are more rangefinder users there.  There have also been sample
>> photos posted there, but a quick scan of the LUG archives yielded
>> nothing after October...and the discussions have all been this
>> month.  You're on your own, there!
>>
>> An extreme example of the problem can be seen on the web page of that
>> paragon of accurate info, Pop Photo:
>>
>> http://www.popphoto.com/popularphotographyfeatures/3403/marooned-
>> leica-lovers.html
>>
>> A better description of the problem (though with what are, I think,
>> somewhat misleading photos), can be found at:
>>
>> http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/free/Infrared/InfraredContamination/
>> InfraredContamination.html
>>
>> There are, undoubtedly, better examples of the problem out there, but
>> these are the ones I could quickly find.  A few minutes with Google
>> might do you well.
>>
>> The unofficial (and I stress - unofficial) response from Leica was
>> reported this morning, by Bill Abbott, and is, essentially, as
>> follows:
>>
>>> 1. The "Banding" and "Mirror/Ghost" effects have been thoroughly
>>> investigated and the root cause has been identified and eliminated.
>>> The remedy will enable every M8 to meet and exceed Leica performance
>>> standards. All customers that have purchased and taken delivery of
>>> an M8 will be entitled to an upgrade performed in Solms, free of
>>> charge. Specific measures will be taken to enhance customer loyalty
>>> that will be outlined in detail in the memo's issued Monday. In
>>> summary, every one of these customers will be entitled to purchase a
>>> new M lens at a 30% discount directly from the factory in Solms.
>>>
>>> 2. The above average sensitivity for infrared light can be
>>> compensated by using an IR filter. Leica will make available two
>>> free IR filters of any size (there are 7 filter sizes for the
>>> current M lenses) for M8 purchasers. Delivery of these free of
>>> charge IR filters is to commence in February, 2007.
>>
>> So, the good news is that everyone will get two free filters... which
>> "should" handle the majority of any one users's lenses.  These will
>> undoubtedly be combination UV/IR  low pass filters.  The bad news, is
>> that you'll need one for every lens you own, if you don't want to
>> have to bother swapping filters around!  That, and your camera will
>> need a quick trip to Solms (or, possibly, New Jersey)!
>>
>> Apparently, shipments of the M8 will resume sometime next week.
>>
>> Whether these measures will be accepted by the Leica community or,
>> for that matter, buyers now coming to Leica gear for the first time,
>> will remain to be seen.
>>
>> Personally, I think that Leica should be exchanging the sensors when
>> they recall the cameras to Solms to fix the banding problem.  This
>> would be a more expensive solution, but one which will do a lot more
>> to solve Leica's image problem.
>>
>> In my crystal ball, I see am M8.2, with a "real" IR filter installed,
>> in Leica's future!
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> David Young,
>> Logan Lake, CANADA
>>
>> Wildlife Photographs: http://www.telyt.com/
>> Personal Web-pages: http://www3.telus.net/~telyt
>>
>>
>>
>>
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