Re: forgot to mention AD HOMINEM ARGUMENT

Hello,
I personally find this to be a forum of friends, or friendly people, who have come together with a common interest and share their photos. If I want to critique and be critiqued, there are other forums that do that well - and my guess is the images, even from these same photographers, would be different were that the environment we were posting. The shots here show me the artists behind the cameras. In this group I appreciatively find no competition, no chest pounding, no one-upmanship - until today.
My thoughts? Who cares what this guy thinks. You're not going to change his mind. He came into the room looking for a fight. He's a bully. Anything you say to him will only encourage and empower him. So just ignore him. Let him speak his peace and then we can get back to being a family of photographers sharing what he considers snapshots. I'm not sure who asked him anyway.
I'm reminded of the little, insecure dog, barking threateningly at the large dog. There is no need to bark back.
BTW, this is coming from a guy (me) who has no professional photographic resume and does not pretend nor desire to have one. Call me a bad photographer all day - you won't hurt my feelings, nor will you impair my love of shooting, developing and enlarging my photographic creations. Your name calling will not take away the 25 years of studio and darkroom work which I've done, not to make money (and it did pay the bills while I was a student, but so did mowing lawns & waiting tables...), but because I love it. Name calling can't put a dent in passion. I shoot for the love of shooting and sharing my shots with people I love. If one's ego is so fragile you have to prove how good you are, I probably don't want to view your work - or sit down with you over a cup of coffee anyway. That said, I would sit down with any of you anytime for a cup of coffee and an opportunity to get to know the person behind the posts. To paraphrase Will Rogers, "I've never had a cup of coffee with a guy I didn't like."
Again, I'm just a guy with a camera. Feel free to embrace or ignore my comments. 

Jeff M
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Bohrer" <markb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <leica@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 1:40 AM
Subject: Re: forgot to mention AD HOMINEM ARGUMENT



Bob:
My photo resume lacks magazine covers and traveling one-man shows because after getting a BSEE in three years and an MSEE, both from the University of Illinois (at the time the number three engineering school in the country), I spent 25 years designing analog and mixed-signal ICs with sales in the tens of millions of dollars for National Semiconductor, AMD, PMI/Analog Devices, Micro Linear, and Linear Technology, with three patents in analog signal synthesis and voltage reference design. Among those million sellers was the first 100BASE-TX Ethernet interface circuit, sold to Cisco, Hewlett-Packard, and 3Com, among many other OEM suppliers. Maybe you've heard of Cisco and HP?
I will bet you'd disregard criticism from that drunk in the street. Like it or not, my experience writing ad copy tells me people accept statements from credible sources and disregard them from non-credible ones. Attorneys make use of this to discredit testimony of opposing counsel's witnesses all the time.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion about entires in the Barnack competition. Whether or not it has merit or accuracy is another story. It didn't have to include general put-downs of photos shown on this list.
And could you be more specific in what you consider 'heart'? A touch of the eternal and divine? If I'd been that nebulous when I directed my engineers, we'd have never released anything to production. 

Mark Bohrer, MSEE
Active Light Photography
www.mountain-and-desert.com

BOB KISS wrote:


*DEAR LIST,*
* I forgot to mention the 5 years I spent double majoring in Photo Science and Photo Illustration at RIT…again, not that it matters at all regarding the validity of my criticism.* 

* BOB*

* *

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* leica-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:leica-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *BOB KISS 
*Sent:* Thursday, March 26, 2009 2:46 PM
*To:* leica@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* AD HOMINEM ARGUMENT

*DEAR LIST,*
* I guess I need to remind some on this list of the concept of an “ad hominem” argument. This means that many people will try to disparage a statement, idea, or criticism because they can criticize the personal attributes, competence, or talent of the person who said it. The point is that the statement, idea, or criticism may, indeed, be valid even if the person saying it can be easily put down. If a stinky drunk lying in a gutter makes a valid criticism of one of your photos, does his failed life make his observation less valid? “Frankly, Scarlett, I don’t give a damn” what you think of me or my photos…I believe my criticism has merit and is certainly no less valid than the visual insensitivity of those who criticized the Barnack photos. I also don’t care who Barnack is…the photos on that site have more life in them than a lot of what I have seen on this list. *
* >From the last few e-mails I have read, I feel I have hit a nerve and the reaction reminds me of Hamlet, “Me thinks the lady doth protest too much!” *
* Now for those who presume to know anything about me, the very concise summary on my past work on my very out of date website doesn’t even scratch the surface of my resume. I have worked and continue to work for international advertising agencies, major international magazines, and international clients. I shot my first national magazine cover in 1972 and I have shot 8 covers of Interview Magazine, 9 covers of Essence Magazine, and I continue to photograph world famous musicians. My work has appeared in, to name just a few, Paris Vogue, German Vogue, British Vogue, Italian Men’s Bazaar, etc. I have taught photography at ICP and guest lectured at FIT, NYU, and The Art (is it Center or Institute? This was in the late 80s) in LA. My photos have appeared in half a dozen high profile books on beauty, fashion, celebrities, and photography. I have three years of training in film making at NYU and 6 years of training in theater directing from Masterworks Laboratory Theater. *
*Because I got tired of the madness of the NYC fashion and advertising industries I moved to Barbados in 1993 and have concentrated on selling my fine art photography since 1996. My prints are in private and public collections on three continents.*
*So, if you think you are going to impress me with one cover, or publication in one or two books you are seriously mistaken. What will impress me is some HEART IN YOUR PHOTOS. Some pulsating, breathing soul! *
***********BUT THE POINT IS THAT NONE OF THIS MATTERS! My criticism in response to the visually insensitive comments regarding the images on the Barnack site IS valid just because IT IS ACCURATE…not because of who I am or what I have done. If you don’t like it, use the delete button as I do with many of your photos and comments. Fair is fair!*
* While being fair, some of the photos of birds have a touch of the eternal and divine in them. The photos of those children in the hospital will haunt and encourage me for the rest of my life. You have MANY excellent examples of good work on this list. Why not ALL aspire to reach THAT SAME LEVEL with your own chosen subjects or genre of work? If you put the same energy into your work that you put into invective against me, imagine what you could accomplish!*
* Now, as suggested off list by one of the more enlightened members of this list, I shall retire to looking and, in an effort to be gracious, I will compliment those photos I think are excellent and simply make no comment otherwise.* 

* CHEERS!*

* BOB*

* *

*Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ *

* *
*"Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to live forever". Mahatma Gandhi*
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