Re: update or new version of jfw?
- From: "John Miller" <n1umj@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:40:34 -0400
There is not 1 library anywhere near me with any screen reader or anything
like that on them, colleges have them in the computer labs, most colleges,
but only open to students. I once had a class at a college, at a satellite
campus, using a public high school, I had to buy a laptop to take that
class.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Angel" <angel238@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
> Our regional and our public library both have jaws and some branches have
> win. I would think because of the ada they all would have to make some
> sort
> of accommodation for us.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "harry bates" <hdbates@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:58 PM
> Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
>
>
>> How many of those libraries have screen readers available to the blind?
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Angel" <angel238@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
>>
>>
>> > We all have access to computers by way of our regional library or the
>> > general public one. They have accessible computers. Many blind people
>> > who
>> > can't afford one of their own use those avenues to write resumes and
>> > access
>> > the world's news.
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "James" <james@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 10:32 AM
>> > Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
>> >
>> >
>> >> First off, every year? I suppose if multiple major versions were to
> come
>> >> out it'd be a requirement, but at the rate FS is going the current SMA
>> >> should last a minimum of 2 years. So buying one every year would be
>> >> effectively wasting what little extra money you do have.
>> >> Secondly, the number of people, period, that is blind, sighted, deaf,
>> >> paralized, whatever, who are without computers and/or internet access
> is
>> >> dwindling. Quickly. This is simply because, not only is it a necessity
>> >> for
>> >> blind people, but for everyone. Virtually everything nowadays is done
> on
>> >> a
>> >> computer. Even cash registers nowadays are computerised. If you don't
>> >> have
>> >> a computer, or don't know how to use one, you'll be left behind
>> >> whether
>> > you
>> >> can read the fine print or not.
>> >>
>> >> Thirdly, I wasn't saying that for the sake of saying "ha ha, I can get
> it
>> >> cheaper". It's obvious things will be a lot more pricy than if you
>> >> were
>> >> taking the mainstream route. But, while admitedly it doesn't seem
>> >> fair,
>> >> adaptive technology companies need to stay in business, too. It
>> >> doesn't
>> >> matter whether it's a small market or not. The costs of marketting,
>> >> purchasing the products for sale, wages, and whatever else they need
>> >> to
>> > pay
>> >> for is rising whether they charge a hundred or a thousand dollars for
>> >> a
>> >> service. If they can't cover those costs, then that company that just
>> >> supposedly ripped you off by selling you a scanner for $600 has also
> just
>> >> sold its last scanner, because it'll be out of business inside of 6
>> > months.
>> >> To put all this in perspective, I purchased a laptop from a company in
>> >> Toronto 3 years ago. I saw the same laptop at a Future Shop store a
> month
>> >> later for $2000 less. Could I have bought that instead? You bet.
>> >> Should
> I
>> >> have? Probably. But the same company that sold me my laptop also sells
>> > JAWS
>> >> and other such programs. In fact, not long after I bought my laptop, a
>> >> friend of mine bought JFW from the same company. Now, if everyone
> decided
>> >> to just buy what they could off the mainstream market, the smaller
> market
>> >> companies would be left without a means of covering the cost of
>> >> running
> a
>> >> business, and voila, same problem as I just mentioned. Add to that,
>> >> adaptive technology companies know how to set up the equipment so
> things
>> >> like JFW won't sputter and die on install. So in a sense, you're also
>> >> paying for the convenience. And, like all things convenient, it'll
>> >> cost
>> > more.
>> >>
>> >> OH, and, before I forget... I would strongly recommend against
>> >> flocking
>> >> to
>> >> the company I got my SMA through. By the time all the prices and
> shipping
>> >> information gets worked out, you'll be paying that much in US dollars
>> > anyway.
>> >>
>> >> James
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> At 09:49 AM 10/24/2004, you wrote:
>> >> >I guess it depends on what you consider a necessity. If you think it
> is
>> > not
>> >> >a necessity to keep up with what's going on in the world, I guess a
>> > computer
>> >> >is not a necessity. I pay for my broadband connection along with my
>> > cable
>> >> >because I get it cheaper that way. I pay for my phone which just got
>> >> >cut
>> > by
>> >> >half the cost because I spent money to avail myself of a cheaper
>> >> >service.
>> > I
>> >> >get a contract here and there because I am a private contractor but
>> > mostly I
>> >> >live on less than 400 dollars a month. It costs a lot to keep
> groceries
>> > in
>> >> >the house and I do not live alone so The reality is that there isn't
>> >> >much
>> >> >money available for "luxuries" like a jaws sma. Were I in a position
> to
>> >> >keep it up, I'd buy one every year, but to sit here and tell me that
>> >> >I
>> > can
>> >> >get anything I want because I buy junk is bounding on the ludicrous
> and
>> >> >rediculous. By the time I get done paying my bills, I'm lucky to
>> >> >have
>> > the
>> >> >money to cover the charge on my checking account, a paultry 12
>> >> >dollars
> a
>> >> >month. Lest someone think I am writing to complain or out of anger,
>> > think
>> >> >again. I am writing in response to this idea that we can all just go
>> >> >out
>> >> >and plunk down money for something that we may feel we need that has
> an
>> >> >arbetrary fixed cost and then we find out that it can actually be had
>> >> >for
>> >> >less. I think we should all flock to The dealer who sells james his
> sma
>> >> >updates and or tell fs that we know it can be had for less directly
>> > because
>> >> >it is being sold for less elsewhere.
>> >> >
>> >> >So many blind people are in such desperate streights that they pay an
>> >> >organization just for the pleasure of reading inferiorly produced
> books
>> > on
>> >> >their computers. I don't think you have to keep up your jaws sma for
>> > that
>> >> >so they read these books and some of them are even lucky enough or
> smart
>> >> >enough or whatever you want to call it that they have scanners and
>> > software
>> >> >to convert some of the books for the organization as vollunteers. I
>> >> >know
>> >> >there is a fair amount of purchasing power out there among the blind,
> I
>> > also
>> >> >know though that there are a lot of people not on this list and not
>> >> >connected to the internet and who don't have the latest and greatest
> or
>> > even
>> >> >a computer because they simply don't have the resources.
>> >> >
>> >> >Recently, on another list, we were told that if you want a job as a
>> >> >blind
>> >> >person, you have to use a computer if only to write your resume and
> send
>> > out
>> >> >requests for information and to search for jobs. The computer is a
>> >> >vital
>> >> >part of our daily lives and everyone who doesn't have one and has the
>> > desire
>> >> >to obtain one should have one and an internet connection. Computers
>> >> >have
>> >> >made a huge difference in how we live act and think and if you don't
>> >> >have
>> >> >one, it's like being doubly blind.
>> >> >
>> >> >Johnnie Apple Seed
>> >> >
>> >> >----- Original Message -----
>> >> >From: "Angel" <angel238@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 9:13 AM
>> >> >Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Look at the junk blind people on fixed incomes do purchase. If
> someone
>> >> >wants something badly enough they will buy it. I think Jaws is well
>> > worth
>> >> >the amount spent on it. Using computers is not a necessity yet.
>> >> >----- Original Message -----
>> >> >From: "hank" <hank@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 11:13 AM
>> >> >Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > > if fs lowered the price would more customers purchase it?
>> >> > > just curious
>> >> > > people on a fix income and the average blind person can't get jaws
>> >> > > and
>> >> >when
>> >> > > the blind agencies won't get them for the blind person then there
>> > screwed.
>> >> > > I am lucky mine helped me but I no firneds who were not so lucky.
>> >> > > the 900 bucks is personally a out ragious price small market or
> not.
>> >> > > just my 2 cents.
>> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > > From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> > > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> > > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 4:35 AM
>> >> > > Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > Jim and all,
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Three things.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 1> there's no reason the bugs as they usually are cannot be
>> >> > > > fixed
>> >> > > > in
>> > a
>> >> >new
>> >> > > > release along with adding some new features.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 2> you said there used to be a company. Why do you think it is
>> > gone?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 3> You talk about adding support, but where is the money going
> to
>> > come
>> >> > > > from
>> >> > > > to do this? I'm not saying you are rong or that we should not
> have
>> > a
>> >> > > > better
>> >> > > > product, but the money to do the things you suggest needs to be
>> > there
>> >> >and
>> >> > > > by
>> >> > > > and large in today's at market, it is not there. We need
>> >> > > > support
>> > for
>> >> > > > instance to a much wider array of tools than we have, but there
> is
>> > only
>> >> > > > support for applications for which there is money provided.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Johnnie Apple Seed
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > > > From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> > > > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> > > > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 6:18 AM
>> >> > > > Subject: RE: update or new version of jfw?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Hi, well you can have working and fast. There was a company
>> >> > > > that
> I
>> > will
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > not
>> >> > > > name here that did just that. Yes there were bugs but the bugs
> got
>> > =
>> >> > > > fixed
>> >> > > > quick. New features came along all the time and new releaces
>> > happened
>> >> > > > offten fixing bubug that came up and adding features when
>> >> > > > needed.
>> > As =
>> >> > > > you
>> >> > > > said quite a lot of the time new bugs were interduced but we
>> >> > > > already
>> > =
>> >> > > > have
>> >> > > > that problem as it is. For example there were no problems with
> the
>> > type
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > key
>> >> > > > function in jaws 5.0 there is now. Lots of bugs were fixed.
>> >> > > > But
>> >> > > > if
>> > a =
>> >> > > > lot
>> >> > > > of these new features and bugs were realeced to the user as they
>> > were =
>> >> > > > coded
>> >> > > > they would have been reported faster and fewer changes would
>> >> > > > have
>> > been =
>> >> > > > maid
>> >> > > > in the mean time. As for jaws 6.0 we are not ready for a major
>> > upgraid
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > yet.
>> >> > > > To many things need to be done and fixed so updates to the
> program
>> > about
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > 5
>> >> > > > or six I would think need to come out in the mean time corecting
> =
>> >> > > > problems.
>> >> > > > If you ask me 6 should come out about the time ms releces the
> next
>> >> > > > =
>> >> > > > version
>> >> > > > of windows. It should come out on the same day as that version
> and
>> > they
>> >> > > > should be able to anounce support for that version. In the mean
>> > time =
>> >> > > > they
>> >> > > > should be working on delivering the things they said they were
>> >> > > > going
>> > to
>> >> > > > deliver and fix what needs fixing. Also some one needs to get
>> >> > > > on
>> > this =
>> >> > > > list
>> >> > > > and all the other lists for jaws and start reading the mail that
>> > comes =
>> >> > > > in so
>> >> > > > that they can aid the users and add the remarks to the data
>> >> > > > base.
>> > This
>> >> > > > company I will not name here did just that and I my self saw the
>> > things
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > I
>> >> > > > brought to the list being fixed and a lot of my own ideas went
>> >> > > > in
>> >> > > > to
>> > the
>> >> > > > program. Why? Because they heard there users. We as users need
> to
>> > =
>> >> > > > start
>> >> > > > making noise we need to tell them that we want to be heard. We
>> >> > > > need
>> > to
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > tell
>> >> > > > them that we will shell out our money but we want fast and good
>> > servus =
>> >> > > > more
>> >> > > > bank for our buck. We want a tol free number for support. The
>> > other
>> >> > > > company I speak of had it. We want more updates with more
>> >> > > > things
>> > fixed.
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > One
>> >> > > > every lets say 6 weeks. Even it if is a new script added on the
>> >> > > > jfw
>> > =
>> >> > > > lite
>> >> > > > web sight is tested by a tech and is desided it works well to
>> > provide =
>> >> > > > access
>> >> > > > to a program then it should be a part of jaws. There should be
>> >> > > > a
>> > page =
>> >> > > > on
>> >> > > > the fs web sight for users to add there scripts for evaluation.
> If
>> > they
>> >> > > > provide access to a program at all they should be included with
>> > jaws. =
>> >> > > > Now I
>> >> > > > know what you are going to say then they are going to have to
>> > support =
>> >> > > > said
>> >> > > > scripts. Yep that is right. So some one had better be looking
> at
>> >> > > > =
>> >> > > > thoughs
>> >> > > > scripts very cairfully. Or if they do not wish to support that
>> > script
>> >> > > > because they did not write it then an email address to the
>> >> > > > person
>> > that =
>> >> > > > did
>> >> > > > write it should be provided. Every support list for jaws every
> one
>> > of =
>> >> > > > them
>> >> > > > should be listed on the fs web sight. And articals from this
> list
>> > that
>> >> > > > answer users questions should be added to the support bass. Now
> as
>> > for
>> >> > > > autherasation copy protection is a bad idea always has been
> always
>> > will
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > be.
>> >> > > > The begest problem I have with jaws is copy protection. I in
>> >> > > > the
>> > course
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > of
>> >> > > > using my pc have lost keys have had them damaged all kinds of
>> >> > > > things
>> > =
>> >> > > > open
>> >> > > > book uses a key number system window eyes does conect out loud
> does
>> > jaws
>> >> > > > should also. I do not like wpa I am sure I am not going to like
>> > this =
>> >> > > > new
>> >> > > > internet key system. As you can see we would be living the
>> >> > > > best
>> >> > > > of
>> > all
>> >> > > > worlds here we would have fast access using the free sorce
>> >> > > > system
>> > for
>> >> > > > scripts updated as needed by fs. We would have the bugs fixed
>> >> > > > in
> a
>> > =
>> >> > > > timely
>> >> > > > manor. We would have the support we deserv. We would have a
> voice
>> > in =
>> >> > > > the
>> >> > > > creation of the program we use every day. David p. makes a good
>> > point =
>> >> > > > when
>> >> > > > he says that jaws for now is a head of the rest. It is. How
>> >> > > > long
>> > can it
>> >> > > > stay there with out the voice of the user. Remember windows it
> self
>> > has
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > this
>> >> > > > problem ms is not hearing the user. And this is why linix bassed
>> > systems
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > are
>> >> > > > becoming more and more the rage. I want to be heard I want my
>> >> > > > voice
>> > to
>> >> > > > count I am sure you do also. If it is not soon fs is going to
> find
>> > that
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > it
>> >> > > > is no longer ahead. Of course everyone but mean seems to be
> happy
>> > with
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > the
>> >> > > > status quo here.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > > From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
>> > =
>> >> > > > Behalf
>> >> > > > Of James
>> >> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:20 PM
>> >> > > > To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > > Subject: RE: update or new version of jfw?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > You can't fix what you don't know is wrong. As I said in another
>> > email =
>> >> > > > just=20
>> >> > > > posted, it may take until the next version to find a bug. IF
>> >> > > > they
> =
>> >> > > > followed=20
>> >> > > > your advice, we'd have a supremely buggy version of JFW 6.0 with
> a
>> >> >less=20
>> >> > > > than stable internet authorization, working anything but
>> >> > > > reliably
>> >> >with=20
>> >> > > > remote access, and freezing or just plain not cooperating on
>> >> > > > some
>> >> > > > of
>> > the
>> >> >=
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > more advanced java-based websites. Then you'll be complaining
>> > because=20
>> >> > > > they're pushing things out to quickly, and not taking time to
> make
>> >> >sure=20
>> >> > > > things work before they're released. Then, you'll be looking for
>> > another
>> >> >=
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > screenreader, because this one's just plain unreliable. I say
>> >> > > > again,
>> > =
>> >> > > > take=20
>> >> > > > your pick. You can't have working, and fast.
>> >> > > > James,
>> >> > > > List Admin
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > At 11:08 PM 10/21/2004, you wrote:
>> >> > > >>Here here right now is what I say and as for your remark about
>> >> >talking=20
>> >> > > >>=3D about it here if we talk about it here maybe some of us note
> I
>> > have
>> >> >=
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >>already =3D done
>> >> > > >>so will speak to fs regularly and voice the fact that we want it
>> > right =
>> >> > > > =3D
>> >> > > >>now
>> >> > > >>and maybe more betas will get posted and maybe updates will
> happen
>> > more
>> >> > > >>often. =3D20
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>-----Original Message-----
>> >> > > >>From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
>> > =3D
>> >> >=
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >>Behalf Of James
>> >> > > >>Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 6:40 PM
>> >> > > >>To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >>Subject: RE: update or new version of jfw?
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>But, since this isn't a Freedom Scientific list, debating about
>> > it=20
>> >> > > >>here=3D20 won't do much except make everyone angrier at the
>> >> >situation.=20
>> >> > > >>Truth is,=3D20 they're doing what they can with what they have.
>> > Every =
>> >> > > > new=20
>> >> > > >>version that=3D20 comes out has something new that some want,
>> >> > > >>and
> =
>> >> > > > leaves=20
>> >> > > >>some others =3D wanting=3D20 something else. People wanted to be
>> > able =
>> >> > > > to=20
>> >> > > >>use JFW without an external=3D20 synthasizer, or for that
>> >> > > >>matter,
> =
>> >> > > > without=20
>> >> > > >>any additional synthasizing=3D20 hardware, period. They finally
> got
>> > =
>> >> > > > that=20
>> >> > > >>in version 3.0. Then FS needed =3D to=3D20
>> >> > > >>make it work with Windows Millennium. Most of that was done by
> 3.5,
>> > =
>> >> > > > the=3D20
>> >> > > >>rest by 4.0. The demand presented itself for Windows XP. 4.02
>> > covered =
>> >> > > > =3D
>> >> > > >>that.=3D20
>> >> > > >>The demand presented itself to work with some of today's more =
>> >> > > > advanced=3D20
>> >> > > >>website technology, which prompted 4.5. 4.51 was released when
> some
>> > =3D
>> >> > > >>parts=3D20
>> >> > > >>of tat technology were upgraded slightly, including MSN
> Messenger.
>> >> > > >>=
>> >> > > > And=3D20
>> >> > > >>that's just a small example.
>> >> > > >>The absolute truth? If FS waited to release all of these
>> >> > > >>features
>> >> > > >>in
>> > =
>> >> > > > one =3D
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>major version, we'd still be sitting on version 4.0 waiting for
>> >> >things=20
>> >> > > >>=3D like=3D20 increased functionality with Windows XP. We have
>> >> > > >>to
>> > keep =
>> >> > > > up=20
>> >> > > >>as best we =3D can=3D20
>> >> > > >>with the mainstream market, because that's what this and other =
>> >> > > > products=3D20
>> >> > > >>deal with. Unfortunately, if you keep up, you don't do it right
> and
>> > =
>> >> > > > you=3D20
>> >> > > >>have problems. IF you don't keep up, you do it right and you
>> >> > > >>have
>> > =3D
>> >> > > >>different=3D20
>> >> > > >>problems. Window Eyes is a perfect example of this. Sure, they
>> > already =
>> >> > > > =3D
>> >> > > >>have=3D20
>> >> > > >>remote access integrated into their software. But, is it done
>> >> > > >>right?
>> > =
>> >> > > > Not =3D
>> >> > > >>if=3D20
>> >> > > >>you go by some of the comments made on this list. Could it be
> done
>> > =3D
>> >> > > >>better?=3D20
>> >> > > >>Most definitely. But, again, users of Window Eyes would be
> waiting
>> > for =
>> >> > > > =3D
>> >> > > >>it,=3D20
>> >> > > >>just like users of JFW are. The real question is, which would
>> >> > > >>you
>> > =3D
>> >> > > >>prefer?=3D20
>> >> > > >>Right, or right now?
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>James,
>> >> > > >>List Admin
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>At 09:30 PM 10/21/2004, you wrote:
>> >> > > >> >But for someone else's money, get it right first. Whose money
>> > is=20
>> >> > > >> >worth=3D20 more?
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> >Bruce
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> >--
>> >> > > >> >Bruce Toews
>> >> > > >> >E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: coke_drinker@xxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >> >Web Site (including info on my weekly commentaries):=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> >http://www.ogts.net For the best oldies anywhere visit=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> >http://www.treasureislandoldies.com
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> >On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, jim grimsby wrote:
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> > > Well for my money get it out get it out fast and fix bugs
>> >> > > >> > > as=20
>> >> > > >> > > they=3D20 come =3D3D up please and thank you!
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > >> > > From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]=20
>> >> > > >> > > On=3D20 =3D3D Behalf Of Bruce Toews
>> >> > > >> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 2:20 PM
>> >> > > >> > > To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >> > > Subject: RE: update or new version of jfw?
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > > The reality is that FS is caught between a rock and a hard
>> > place=20
>> >> > > >> > > in=3D20 =3D3D terms=3D3D20 of PR when it comes to release
>> > dates. =
>> >> > > > Release=20
>> >> > > >> > > a =3D
>> >> > > >>product=3D20
>> >> > > >> > > too soon, and =3D3D it's=3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > > bug-ridden, and everyone whines about how they should have
>> >> >wated.=20
>> >> > > >> > > =3D
>> >> > > >>Wait =3D3D
>> >> > > >> > > and=3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > > try to deal with bugs, and everyone whines about how the
> other
>> > guy
>> >> >=
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >> > > =3D
>> >> > > >>got =3D3D
>> >> > > >> > > it=3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > > out sooner, why can't they? There's no winning.
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > > Bruce
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > > --=3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > > Bruce Toews
>> >> > > >> > > E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: coke_drinker@xxxxxxxx Web
>> > Site=20
>> >> > > >> > > (including info on my weekly commentaries):=3D20 =
>> >> > > > http://www.ogts.net=20
>> >> > > >> > > =3D3D For the best oldies anywhere visit=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> > > http://www.treasureislandoldies.com
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Chip Orange wrote:
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > >> Well, being a software developer myself, I know that
>> > release=20
>> >> > > >> > >> dates=3D20 are =3D3D
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > >> always a tug of war between when you want it ready and
>> >> > > >> > >> when
> =
>> >> > > > it=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> > >> is=3D3D20 really ready. Different companies have
>> >> > > >> > >> differing=20
>> >> > > >> > >> policies =3D
>> >> > > >>as=3D20
>> >> > > >> > >> to=3D3D20 exactly which wins in the struggle.
>> >> > > >> > >>
>> >> > > >> > >> =3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >> Chip
>> >> > > >> > >>
>> >> > > >> > >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > >> > >>> From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D3D20=3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =3D3D
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > >>> On Behalf Of hank
>> >> > > >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 3:06 PM
>> >> > > >> > >>> To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >> > >>> Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
>> >> > > >> > >>> =3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> interesting they told me they didn't have a release date.
>> > funky
>> >> > > >> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > > >> > >>> From: "Troy Burnham" <tburnham@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> > > >> > >>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> > > >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 11:30 AM
>> >> > > >> > >>> Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
>> >> > > >> > >>> =3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> =3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>>> A friend of mine called FS the other day and was told
> that
>> > =3D
>> >> > > >>a=3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> new version,
>> >> > > >> > >>>> probably 6.0, will be out around the end of the year
>> > I=3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> think it was. I
>> >> > > >> > >>>> don't know what will be in it though or if that is
>> > even=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> > >>>> accurate.=3D3D20 Troy
>> >> > > >> > >>>>
>> >> > > >> > >>>>
>> >> > > >> > >>>>
>> >> > > >> > >>>> On Thursday 10/21/2004 01:17 PM, Jarrod Jicha said:
>> >> > > >> > >>>>> does anyone know or has anyone heard anything about=20
>> >> > > >> > >>>>> when=3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> either an update,
>> >> > > >> > >>>>> or a new version of jfw is coming out? was just =3D
>> >> > > >>wondering,=3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> also, does
>> >> > > >> > >>>>> anyone either know, or have they heard what will be in
> =3D
>> >> > > >>the=3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> new version?
>> >> > > >> > >>>>> --
>> >> > > >> > >>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to =
>> >> > > > jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> > >>>>> To=3D3D20 unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a
>> > message =
>> >> > > > =3D
>> >> > > >>to=3D3D20=3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in
> =3D
>> >> > > >>the=3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> subject line.
>> >> > > >> > >>>>> Archives located at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> > > >> > >>>>>
>> >> > > >> > >>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received
> =3D
>> >> > > >>from=3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> the list, or
>> >> > > >> > >>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to
> the=20
>> >> > > >> > >>>>> list.=3D20 Rather =3D3D
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > >>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >> > >>>>
>> >> > > >> > >>>> --
>> >> > > >> > >>>> To post a message to the list, send it to
> jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > =3D
>> >> > > >>To=3D3D20=3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>>> unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message=20
>> >> > > >> > >>>> to=3D3D3D20=3D3D20 =3D
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> > >>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe
>> >> > > >> > >>>> in=20
>> >> > > >> > >>>> the=3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> subject line.
>> >> > > >> > >>>> Archives located at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> > > >> > >>>>
>> >> > > >> > >>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received
> =3D
>> >> > > >>from=3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> the list, or=3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to
>> >> > > >> > >>>> the=20
>> >> > > >> > >>>> list.=3D3D20 =3D
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> > >>>> Rather=3D3D3D20 contact the list owner at=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> > >>>> jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> =3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> --
>> >> > > >> > >>> To post a message to the list, send it to
> jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > =3D
>> >> > > >>To=3D3D20=3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message=20
>> >> > > >> > >>> to=3D3D3D20=3D3D20=3D20 jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with
>> >> > > >> > >>> the
>> >> >word=20
>> >> > > >> > >>> unsubscribe in the=3D3D3D20 =3D
>> >> > > >>=3D3D
>> >> > > >> > > subject=3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> line. Archives located at:
>> > //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> > > >> > >>> =3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received=20
>> >> > > >> > >>> from=3D3D3D20 =3D
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> > >>> the list, or the way the list is being run, do not post
> =3D
>> >> > > >>them=3D3D3D20=3D20
>> >> > > >> > >>> to the list. Rather contact the list owner
>> > at=3D3D3D20=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> > >>> jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D3D3D20
>> >> > > >> > >> --
>> >> > > >> > >> To post a message to the list, send it to
>> >> > > >> > >> jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
>> >> > > >> > >> To=3D3D20 =3D
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> > >> unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message
>> > to=3D3D20=3D20
>> >> >=
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >> > >> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in
>> > the=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> > >> subject=3D3D20 line. Archives located at:=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> > >> //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> > > >> > >>
>> >> > > >> > >> If you have any concerns about the list, post received
>> >> > > >> > >> from=20
>> >> > > >> > >> the=3D20 list,=3D3D20 or the way the list is being run, do
>> >> > > >> > >> not
>> > =
>> >> > > > post=20
>> >> > > >> > >> them to =3D
>> >> > > >>the=3D20
>> >> > > >> > >> list. Rather =3D3D
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > >> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >> > >>
>> >> > > >> > > --
>> >> > > >> > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> =
>> >> > > > To=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> > > unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message
> to=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in
> the=20
>> >> > > >> > > subject=3D20 line. Archives located at:=20
>> >> > > >> > > //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from
> =
>> >> > > > the=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> > > list, or =3D3D the way the list is being run, do not post
> them
>> >> >to=20
>> >> > > >> > > the=3D20 list. Rather contact =3D3D the list owner at=20
>> >> > > >> > > jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > > --
>> >> > > >> > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> =
>> >> > > > To=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> > > unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> >> > > >> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the=20
>> >> > > >> > subject=3D20 line.
>> >> > > >> > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from
> =
>> >> > > > the=3D20=20
>> >> > > >> > > list,
>> >> > > >> > or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the
>> > list.=20
>> >> > > >> > Rather contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >> > >
>> >> > > >> >--
>> >> > > >> >To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To=20
>> >> > > >> >unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=20
>> >> > > >> >jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
>> >> > > >> >subject
>> > =
>> >> > > > =3D
>> >> > > >>line.
>> >> > > >> >Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> > > >> >
>> >> > > >> >If you have any concerns about the list, post received from
>> >> > > >> >the=20
>> >> > > >> >list,=3D20 or the way the list is being run, do not post them
> to
>> >> >the=20
>> >> > > >> >list. Rather=3D20 contact the list owner at
>> > jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>--
>> >> > > >>To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=20
>> >> > > >>jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
>> > subject=20
>> >> > > >>line. Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the
>> > list,=20
>> >> > > >>or =3D the way the list is being run, do not post them to the
>> > list.=20
>> >> > > >>Rather contact =3D the
>> >> > > >>list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>--
>> >> > > >>To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> >> > > >>jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
> subject
>> >> > > >>=
>> >> > > > line.
>> >> > > >>Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the
>> > list,=20
>> >> > > >>or
>> >> > > >>the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.
>> > Rather=20
>> >> > > >>contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > --
>> >> > > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> >> > > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
> subject
>> > line.
>> >> > > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the
>> > list, or
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > the
>> >> > > > way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>> > contact
>> >> >=
>> >> > > > the
>> >> > > > list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > --
>> >> > > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> >> > > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
> subject
>> > line.
>> >> > > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the
>> > list, or
>> >> > > > the
>> >> > > > way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>> > contact
>> >> > > > the
>> >> > > > list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > --
>> >> > > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> >> > > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
> subject
>> > line.
>> >> > > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the
>> > list, or
>> >> > > > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.
> Rather
>> >> > > > contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> >> >jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
> line.
>> >> > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> > >
>> >> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the
> list,
>> > or
>> >> >the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>> > contact
>> >> >the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> >> >jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
> line.
>> >> >Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> >
>> >> >If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list,
> or
>> > the
>> >> >way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
> contact
>> > the
>> >> >list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> >> >jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
> line.
>> >> >Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >> >
>> >> >If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list,
> or
>> >> >the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>> >> >contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
>> > line.
>> >> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >>
>> >> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list,
> or
>> > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>> > contact
>> > the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> > --
>> > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
>> > line.
>> > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> >
>> > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list,
>> > or
>> > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>> > contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>>
>> --
>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>
>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
> contact
> the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> --
> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>
> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
--
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the
way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the
list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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