Re: update or new version of jfw?
- From: James <james@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:32:00 -0400
First off, every year? I suppose if multiple major versions were to come
out it'd be a requirement, but at the rate FS is going the current SMA
should last a minimum of 2 years. So buying one every year would be
effectively wasting what little extra money you do have.
Secondly, the number of people, period, that is blind, sighted, deaf,
paralized, whatever, who are without computers and/or internet access is
dwindling. Quickly. This is simply because, not only is it a necessity for
blind people, but for everyone. Virtually everything nowadays is done on a
computer. Even cash registers nowadays are computerised. If you don't have
a computer, or don't know how to use one, you'll be left behind whether you
can read the fine print or not.
Thirdly, I wasn't saying that for the sake of saying "ha ha, I can get it
cheaper". It's obvious things will be a lot more pricy than if you were
taking the mainstream route. But, while admitedly it doesn't seem fair,
adaptive technology companies need to stay in business, too. It doesn't
matter whether it's a small market or not. The costs of marketting,
purchasing the products for sale, wages, and whatever else they need to pay
for is rising whether they charge a hundred or a thousand dollars for a
service. If they can't cover those costs, then that company that just
supposedly ripped you off by selling you a scanner for $600 has also just
sold its last scanner, because it'll be out of business inside of 6 months.
To put all this in perspective, I purchased a laptop from a company in
Toronto 3 years ago. I saw the same laptop at a Future Shop store a month
later for $2000 less. Could I have bought that instead? You bet. Should I
have? Probably. But the same company that sold me my laptop also sells JAWS
and other such programs. In fact, not long after I bought my laptop, a
friend of mine bought JFW from the same company. Now, if everyone decided
to just buy what they could off the mainstream market, the smaller market
companies would be left without a means of covering the cost of running a
business, and voila, same problem as I just mentioned. Add to that,
adaptive technology companies know how to set up the equipment so things
like JFW won't sputter and die on install. So in a sense, you're also
paying for the convenience. And, like all things convenient, it'll cost more.
OH, and, before I forget... I would strongly recommend against flocking to
the company I got my SMA through. By the time all the prices and shipping
information gets worked out, you'll be paying that much in US dollars anyway.
James
At 09:49 AM 10/24/2004, you wrote:
>I guess it depends on what you consider a necessity. If you think it is not
>a necessity to keep up with what's going on in the world, I guess a computer
>is not a necessity. I pay for my broadband connection along with my cable
>because I get it cheaper that way. I pay for my phone which just got cut by
>half the cost because I spent money to avail myself of a cheaper service. I
>get a contract here and there because I am a private contractor but mostly I
>live on less than 400 dollars a month. It costs a lot to keep groceries in
>the house and I do not live alone so The reality is that there isn't much
>money available for "luxuries" like a jaws sma. Were I in a position to
>keep it up, I'd buy one every year, but to sit here and tell me that I can
>get anything I want because I buy junk is bounding on the ludicrous and
>rediculous. By the time I get done paying my bills, I'm lucky to have the
>money to cover the charge on my checking account, a paultry 12 dollars a
>month. Lest someone think I am writing to complain or out of anger, think
>again. I am writing in response to this idea that we can all just go out
>and plunk down money for something that we may feel we need that has an
>arbetrary fixed cost and then we find out that it can actually be had for
>less. I think we should all flock to The dealer who sells james his sma
>updates and or tell fs that we know it can be had for less directly because
>it is being sold for less elsewhere.
>
>So many blind people are in such desperate streights that they pay an
>organization just for the pleasure of reading inferiorly produced books on
>their computers. I don't think you have to keep up your jaws sma for that
>so they read these books and some of them are even lucky enough or smart
>enough or whatever you want to call it that they have scanners and software
>to convert some of the books for the organization as vollunteers. I know
>there is a fair amount of purchasing power out there among the blind, I also
>know though that there are a lot of people not on this list and not
>connected to the internet and who don't have the latest and greatest or even
>a computer because they simply don't have the resources.
>
>Recently, on another list, we were told that if you want a job as a blind
>person, you have to use a computer if only to write your resume and send out
>requests for information and to search for jobs. The computer is a vital
>part of our daily lives and everyone who doesn't have one and has the desire
>to obtain one should have one and an internet connection. Computers have
>made a huge difference in how we live act and think and if you don't have
>one, it's like being doubly blind.
>
>Johnnie Apple Seed
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Angel" <angel238@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 9:13 AM
>Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
>
>
>Look at the junk blind people on fixed incomes do purchase. If someone
>wants something badly enough they will buy it. I think Jaws is well worth
>the amount spent on it. Using computers is not a necessity yet.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "hank" <hank@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 11:13 AM
>Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
>
>
> > if fs lowered the price would more customers purchase it?
> > just curious
> > people on a fix income and the average blind person can't get jaws and
>when
> > the blind agencies won't get them for the blind person then there screwed.
> > I am lucky mine helped me but I no firneds who were not so lucky.
> > the 900 bucks is personally a out ragious price small market or not.
> > just my 2 cents.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 4:35 AM
> > Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
> >
> >
> > > Jim and all,
> > >
> > > Three things.
> > >
> > > 1> there's no reason the bugs as they usually are cannot be fixed in a
>new
> > > release along with adding some new features.
> > >
> > > 2> you said there used to be a company. Why do you think it is gone?
> > >
> > > 3> You talk about adding support, but where is the money going to come
> > > from
> > > to do this? I'm not saying you are rong or that we should not have a
> > > better
> > > product, but the money to do the things you suggest needs to be there
>and
> > > by
> > > and large in today's at market, it is not there. We need support for
> > > instance to a much wider array of tools than we have, but there is only
> > > support for applications for which there is money provided.
> > >
> > > Johnnie Apple Seed
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 6:18 AM
> > > Subject: RE: update or new version of jfw?
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi, well you can have working and fast. There was a company that I will
>=
> > > not
> > > name here that did just that. Yes there were bugs but the bugs got =
> > > fixed
> > > quick. New features came along all the time and new releaces happened
> > > offten fixing bubug that came up and adding features when needed. As =
> > > you
> > > said quite a lot of the time new bugs were interduced but we already =
> > > have
> > > that problem as it is. For example there were no problems with the type
>=
> > > key
> > > function in jaws 5.0 there is now. Lots of bugs were fixed. But if a =
> > > lot
> > > of these new features and bugs were realeced to the user as they were =
> > > coded
> > > they would have been reported faster and fewer changes would have been =
> > > maid
> > > in the mean time. As for jaws 6.0 we are not ready for a major upgraid
>=
> > > yet.
> > > To many things need to be done and fixed so updates to the program about
>=
> > > 5
> > > or six I would think need to come out in the mean time corecting =
> > > problems.
> > > If you ask me 6 should come out about the time ms releces the next =
> > > version
> > > of windows. It should come out on the same day as that version and they
> > > should be able to anounce support for that version. In the mean time =
> > > they
> > > should be working on delivering the things they said they were going to
> > > deliver and fix what needs fixing. Also some one needs to get on this =
> > > list
> > > and all the other lists for jaws and start reading the mail that comes =
> > > in so
> > > that they can aid the users and add the remarks to the data base. This
> > > company I will not name here did just that and I my self saw the things
>=
> > > I
> > > brought to the list being fixed and a lot of my own ideas went in to the
> > > program. Why? Because they heard there users. We as users need to =
> > > start
> > > making noise we need to tell them that we want to be heard. We need to
>=
> > > tell
> > > them that we will shell out our money but we want fast and good servus =
> > > more
> > > bank for our buck. We want a tol free number for support. The other
> > > company I speak of had it. We want more updates with more things fixed.
>=
> > > One
> > > every lets say 6 weeks. Even it if is a new script added on the jfw =
> > > lite
> > > web sight is tested by a tech and is desided it works well to provide =
> > > access
> > > to a program then it should be a part of jaws. There should be a page =
> > > on
> > > the fs web sight for users to add there scripts for evaluation. If they
> > > provide access to a program at all they should be included with jaws. =
> > > Now I
> > > know what you are going to say then they are going to have to support =
> > > said
> > > scripts. Yep that is right. So some one had better be looking at =
> > > thoughs
> > > scripts very cairfully. Or if they do not wish to support that script
> > > because they did not write it then an email address to the person that =
> > > did
> > > write it should be provided. Every support list for jaws every one of =
> > > them
> > > should be listed on the fs web sight. And articals from this list that
> > > answer users questions should be added to the support bass. Now as for
> > > autherasation copy protection is a bad idea always has been always will
>=
> > > be.
> > > The begest problem I have with jaws is copy protection. I in the course
>=
> > > of
> > > using my pc have lost keys have had them damaged all kinds of things =
> > > open
> > > book uses a key number system window eyes does conect out loud does jaws
> > > should also. I do not like wpa I am sure I am not going to like this =
> > > new
> > > internet key system. As you can see we would be living the best of all
> > > worlds here we would have fast access using the free sorce system for
> > > scripts updated as needed by fs. We would have the bugs fixed in a =
> > > timely
> > > manor. We would have the support we deserv. We would have a voice in =
> > > the
> > > creation of the program we use every day. David p. makes a good point =
> > > when
> > > he says that jaws for now is a head of the rest. It is. How long can it
> > > stay there with out the voice of the user. Remember windows it self has
>=
> > > this
> > > problem ms is not hearing the user. And this is why linix bassed systems
>=
> > > are
> > > becoming more and more the rage. I want to be heard I want my voice to
> > > count I am sure you do also. If it is not soon fs is going to find that
>=
> > > it
> > > is no longer ahead. Of course everyone but mean seems to be happy with
>=
> > > the
> > > status quo here.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On =
> > > Behalf
> > > Of James
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:20 PM
> > > To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: RE: update or new version of jfw?
> > >
> > >
> > > You can't fix what you don't know is wrong. As I said in another email =
> > > just=20
> > > posted, it may take until the next version to find a bug. IF they =
> > > followed=20
> > > your advice, we'd have a supremely buggy version of JFW 6.0 with a
>less=20
> > > than stable internet authorization, working anything but reliably
>with=20
> > > remote access, and freezing or just plain not cooperating on some of the
>=
> > >
> > > more advanced java-based websites. Then you'll be complaining because=20
> > > they're pushing things out to quickly, and not taking time to make
>sure=20
> > > things work before they're released. Then, you'll be looking for another
>=
> > >
> > > screenreader, because this one's just plain unreliable. I say again, =
> > > take=20
> > > your pick. You can't have working, and fast.
> > > James,
> > > List Admin
> > >
> > > At 11:08 PM 10/21/2004, you wrote:
> > >>Here here right now is what I say and as for your remark about
>talking=20
> > >>=3D about it here if we talk about it here maybe some of us note I have
>=
> > >
> > >>already =3D done
> > >>so will speak to fs regularly and voice the fact that we want it right =
> > > =3D
> > >>now
> > >>and maybe more betas will get posted and maybe updates will happen more
> > >>often. =3D20
> > >>
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On =3D
>=
> > >
> > >>Behalf Of James
> > >>Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 6:40 PM
> > >>To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>Subject: RE: update or new version of jfw?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>But, since this isn't a Freedom Scientific list, debating about it=20
> > >>here=3D20 won't do much except make everyone angrier at the
>situation.=20
> > >>Truth is,=3D20 they're doing what they can with what they have. Every =
> > > new=20
> > >>version that=3D20 comes out has something new that some want, and =
> > > leaves=20
> > >>some others =3D wanting=3D20 something else. People wanted to be able =
> > > to=20
> > >>use JFW without an external=3D20 synthasizer, or for that matter, =
> > > without=20
> > >>any additional synthasizing=3D20 hardware, period. They finally got =
> > > that=20
> > >>in version 3.0. Then FS needed =3D to=3D20
> > >>make it work with Windows Millennium. Most of that was done by 3.5, =
> > > the=3D20
> > >>rest by 4.0. The demand presented itself for Windows XP. 4.02 covered =
> > > =3D
> > >>that.=3D20
> > >>The demand presented itself to work with some of today's more =
> > > advanced=3D20
> > >>website technology, which prompted 4.5. 4.51 was released when some =3D
> > >>parts=3D20
> > >>of tat technology were upgraded slightly, including MSN Messenger. =
> > > And=3D20
> > >>that's just a small example.
> > >>The absolute truth? If FS waited to release all of these features in =
> > > one =3D
> > >>
> > >>major version, we'd still be sitting on version 4.0 waiting for
>things=20
> > >>=3D like=3D20 increased functionality with Windows XP. We have to keep =
> > > up=20
> > >>as best we =3D can=3D20
> > >>with the mainstream market, because that's what this and other =
> > > products=3D20
> > >>deal with. Unfortunately, if you keep up, you don't do it right and =
> > > you=3D20
> > >>have problems. IF you don't keep up, you do it right and you have =3D
> > >>different=3D20
> > >>problems. Window Eyes is a perfect example of this. Sure, they already =
> > > =3D
> > >>have=3D20
> > >>remote access integrated into their software. But, is it done right? =
> > > Not =3D
> > >>if=3D20
> > >>you go by some of the comments made on this list. Could it be done =3D
> > >>better?=3D20
> > >>Most definitely. But, again, users of Window Eyes would be waiting for =
> > > =3D
> > >>it,=3D20
> > >>just like users of JFW are. The real question is, which would you =3D
> > >>prefer?=3D20
> > >>Right, or right now?
> > >>
> > >>James,
> > >>List Admin
> > >>
> > >>At 09:30 PM 10/21/2004, you wrote:
> > >> >But for someone else's money, get it right first. Whose money is=20
> > >> >worth=3D20 more?
> > >> >
> > >> >Bruce
> > >> >
> > >> >--
> > >> >Bruce Toews
> > >> >E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: coke_drinker@xxxxxxxx
> > >> >Web Site (including info on my weekly commentaries):=3D20=20
> > >> >http://www.ogts.net For the best oldies anywhere visit=3D20=20
> > >> >http://www.treasureislandoldies.com
> > >> >
> > >> >On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, jim grimsby wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Well for my money get it out get it out fast and fix bugs as=20
> > >> > > they=3D20 come =3D3D up please and thank you!
> > >> > >
> > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > > From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]=20
> > >> > > On=3D20 =3D3D Behalf Of Bruce Toews
> > >> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 2:20 PM
> > >> > > To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> > > Subject: RE: update or new version of jfw?
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The reality is that FS is caught between a rock and a hard place=20
> > >> > > in=3D20 =3D3D terms=3D3D20 of PR when it comes to release dates. =
> > > Release=20
> > >> > > a =3D
> > >>product=3D20
> > >> > > too soon, and =3D3D it's=3D3D20
> > >> > > bug-ridden, and everyone whines about how they should have
>wated.=20
> > >> > > =3D
> > >>Wait =3D3D
> > >> > > and=3D3D20
> > >> > > try to deal with bugs, and everyone whines about how the other guy
>=
> > >
> > >> > > =3D
> > >>got =3D3D
> > >> > > it=3D3D20
> > >> > > out sooner, why can't they? There's no winning.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Bruce
> > >> > >
> > >> > > --=3D3D20
> > >> > > Bruce Toews
> > >> > > E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: coke_drinker@xxxxxxxx Web Site=20
> > >> > > (including info on my weekly commentaries):=3D20 =
> > > http://www.ogts.net=20
> > >> > > =3D3D For the best oldies anywhere visit=3D20=20
> > >> > > http://www.treasureislandoldies.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Chip Orange wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> Well, being a software developer myself, I know that release=20
> > >> > >> dates=3D20 are =3D3D
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> always a tug of war between when you want it ready and when =
> > > it=3D20=20
> > >> > >> is=3D3D20 really ready. Different companies have differing=20
> > >> > >> policies =3D
> > >>as=3D20
> > >> > >> to=3D3D20 exactly which wins in the struggle.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> =3D3D3D20
> > >> > >> Chip
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >> > >>> From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D3D20=3D20
> > >> > >>> [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =3D3D
> > >> > >
> > >> > >>> On Behalf Of hank
> > >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 3:06 PM
> > >> > >>> To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> > >>> Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
> > >> > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> interesting they told me they didn't have a release date. funky
> > >> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > >>> From: "Troy Burnham" <tburnham@xxxxxxxxx>
> > >> > >>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 11:30 AM
> > >> > >>> Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
> > >> > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>>> A friend of mine called FS the other day and was told that =3D
> > >>a=3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> new version,
> > >> > >>>> probably 6.0, will be out around the end of the year I=3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> think it was. I
> > >> > >>>> don't know what will be in it though or if that is even=3D20=20
> > >> > >>>> accurate.=3D3D20 Troy
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> On Thursday 10/21/2004 01:17 PM, Jarrod Jicha said:
> > >> > >>>>> does anyone know or has anyone heard anything about=20
> > >> > >>>>> when=3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> either an update,
> > >> > >>>>> or a new version of jfw is coming out? was just =3D
> > >>wondering,=3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> also, does
> > >> > >>>>> anyone either know, or have they heard what will be in =3D
> > >>the=3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> new version?
> > >> > >>>>> --
> > >> > >>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to =
> > > jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D20=20
> > >> > >>>>> To=3D3D20 unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message =
> > > =3D
> > >>to=3D3D20=3D20
> > >> > >>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in =3D
> > >>the=3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> subject line.
> > >> > >>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received =3D
> > >>from=3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> the list, or
> > >> > >>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the=20
> > >> > >>>>> list.=3D20 Rather =3D3D
> > >> > >
> > >> > >>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> --
> > >> > >>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D
> > >>To=3D3D20=3D20
> > >> > >>>> unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message=20
> > >> > >>>> to=3D3D3D20=3D3D20 =3D
> > >>
> > >> > >>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in=20
> > >> > >>>> the=3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> subject line.
> > >> > >>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received =3D
> > >>from=3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> the list, or=3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the=20
> > >> > >>>> list.=3D3D20 =3D
> > >>
> > >> > >>>> Rather=3D3D3D20 contact the list owner at=3D20=20
> > >> > >>>> jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> --
> > >> > >>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D
> > >>To=3D3D20=3D20
> > >> > >>> unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message=20
> > >> > >>> to=3D3D3D20=3D3D20=3D20 jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the
>word=20
> > >> > >>> unsubscribe in the=3D3D3D20 =3D
> > >>=3D3D
> > >> > > subject=3D3D20
> > >> > >>> line. Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >> > >>> =3D3D3D20
> > >> > >>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received=20
> > >> > >>> from=3D3D3D20 =3D
> > >>
> > >> > >>> the list, or the way the list is being run, do not post =3D
> > >>them=3D3D3D20=3D20
> > >> > >>> to the list. Rather contact the list owner at=3D3D3D20=3D20=20
> > >> > >>> jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D3D3D20
> > >> > >> --
> > >> > >> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> > >> > >> To=3D3D20 =3D
> > >>
> > >> > >> unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=3D3D20=3D20
>=
> > >
> > >> > >> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the=3D20=20
> > >> > >> subject=3D3D20 line. Archives located at:=3D20=20
> > >> > >> //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from=20
> > >> > >> the=3D20 list,=3D3D20 or the way the list is being run, do not =
> > > post=20
> > >> > >> them to =3D
> > >>the=3D20
> > >> > >> list. Rather =3D3D
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> > >>
> > >> > > --
> > >> > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =
> > > To=3D20=20
> > >> > > unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=3D20=20
> > >> > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the=20
> > >> > > subject=3D20 line. Archives located at:=20
> > >> > > //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >> > >
> > >> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from =
> > > the=3D20=20
> > >> > > list, or =3D3D the way the list is being run, do not post them
>to=20
> > >> > > the=3D20 list. Rather contact =3D3D the list owner at=20
> > >> > > jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > --
> > >> > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =
> > > To=3D20=20
> > >> > > unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> > >> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the=20
> > >> > subject=3D20 line.
> > >> > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >> > >
> > >> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from =
> > > the=3D20=20
> > >> > > list,
> > >> > or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.=20
> > >> > Rather contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> > >
> > >> >--
> > >> >To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To=20
> > >> >unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=20
> > >> >jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject =
> > > =3D
> > >>line.
> > >> >Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >> >
> > >> >If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the=20
> > >> >list,=3D20 or the way the list is being run, do not post them to
>the=20
> > >> >list. Rather=3D20 contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=20
> > >>jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject=20
> > >>line. Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >>
> > >>If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list,=20
> > >>or =3D the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.=20
> > >>Rather contact =3D the
> > >>list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> > >>jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject =
> > > line.
> > >>Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >>
> > >>If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list,=20
> > >>or
> > >>the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather=20
> > >>contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
> > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >
> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
>=
> > > the
> > > way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact
>=
> > > the
> > > list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
> > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >
> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
> > > the
> > > way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact
> > > the
> > > list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > > --
> > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
> > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >
> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
> > > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
> > > contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > --
> > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
> > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> >
> > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
>the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact
>the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>--
>To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
>Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>
>If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the
>way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the
>list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>--
>To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
>Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>
>If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
>the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the
way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the
list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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