RE: screen reader superiority

  • From: "Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)" <Ted.Lisle@xxxxxx>
  • To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 09:09:17 -0400

There's always the SAPI alternative.  Most of us have some 4 and 5 voices 
around, and they're supposed to work.  Any 5 would be vastly superior to the 
stock, which sounds like a throwback to the mid 1970's.

This product doesn't look half bad; it isn't JAWS yet, at least in the number 
of programs with which it will work, but it's well worth watching.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
Gary King
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 3:43 PM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: screen reader superiority

Yadiel,
I don't know any place where you can get a free speech synthesizer, and 
probably, if they are free, they won't sound any better than the one that 
comes with NVDA.  As for low cost, that's rather subjective.  I got a couple 
of AT&T Natural Voices from

www.nextup.com

when I got TextAloud and WeatherAloud from them several years ago.  I don't 
recall what I paid for them.  Some of the speech synthesizers they sell may 
be tied to these programs, but the ones I got weren't.

as for your statement that NVDA isn't free because you don't like the speech 
synthesizer that comes with it and will have to buy one you like, I can't 
think of anything to say about that.  Well, I could, but ...

Gary King
w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Yadiel" <yadosotomayor@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: screen reader superiority


> Well then, do you know where I can find any good quality free or low cost 
> speech synthesizer and where I could find them? Also, there's something. 
> If the windows speech synthesizer sucks, and the good quality ones cost 
> some amount of money, then it is not free then. Just a thought.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Gary King" <w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:06 PM
> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: screen reader superiority
>
>> You don't have to use the voice that comes with NVDA.  You can use any 
>> other voices on your system that are not tied to a particular screen 
>> reader.  If NVDA included a commercially available speech synthesizer, it 
>> wouldn't be free any more.
>>
>> Gary King
>> w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Yadiel" <yadosotomayor@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 11:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: screen reader superiority
>>
>>
>>>I agree with the Snapshots or whatever they are called with NVDA. I only 
>>>want this to happen to NVDA and that is for them to switch the sitesasor. 
>>>The voice that it has right now in lack for a better word, sucks!. If 
>>>they change it to a better sounding robotic voice like the one on jaws 
>>>and or window-eyes, I'll switch to NVDA without problem. Meanwhile, I'll 
>>>keep paying for my SMAs.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yadiel
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 12:13 PM
>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Subject: Re: screen reader superiority
>>>
>>>> Whoa!  Just went to Parham's link.  Those snapshots are exciting to
>>>> see.  Wish FS did something similar.  Reading the change log is like
>>>> watching the software grow in functionality right in front of you.
>>>> "changed user's guide to say our software does support such and such
>>>> ever since we added such and such."  Entries seem to be made weekly if
>>>> not daily with anythinf from minor changes to the code to major
>>>> milestones.  Something pretty big seems to happen in it like every
>>>> other week or so.  Makes me wish i knew Python really well and c++
>>>> much better than I do now so I could contribute to making it better.
>>>> this screen reader looks like it's going to seriously give FS and GW
>>>> and System Access to go a real run for their money in the next year or
>>>> so now that display hooks are added.  In the next two or three, they
>>>> might have a hard time convincing people to pay for what's available
>>>> for free.  Good times are ahead, folks!  I say this because either Fs
>>>> and GW Micro will be jolted out of their complacency (I think GW is
>>>> actually not as bad as FS in this department) and make the stuff we
>>>> pay for better or, we'll get a nice, free screen reader to use that
>>>> does as much as or more than Jaws or Window eyes.  Really impressed
>>>> with NVDA and Open Office, for instance.
>>>>
>>>> Alex M
>>>>
>>>> On 8/8/10, Dhunthausen <dhunthausen@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> Thanks Tom, I'll take a look.
>>>>>
>>>>> Drew
>>>>>
>>>>> Drew Hunthausen
>>>>> 714-296-7111
>>>>> Mailto: dhunthausen@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Tom Lange" <trlange@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 12:35 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: screen reader superiority
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Drew,
>>>>>> NVDA stands for Nonvisual Desktop Access.  NVDA is a free, 
>>>>>> open-source
>>>>>> screen reader.  If you want to read about it and try it out, go to:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.nvda-project.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Dhunthausen" <dhunthausen@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 6:31 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: screen reader superiority
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is NVDA? I don't know if I missed something. thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Drew
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Drew Hunthausen
>>>>>>> 714-296-7111
>>>>>>> Mailto: dhunthausen@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Gary King" <w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 2:09 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: screen reader superiority
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I would say that even if you can't afford another screen reader, you
>>>>>>>>should have the free NVDA screen reader on your system.  The first 
>>>>>>>>thing
>>>>>>>>I do when my speech goes silent is to hit the NVDA hot key.  If NVDA
>>>>>>>>starts speaking, I know it's a JAWS crash; if nothing happens, I 
>>>>>>>>know
>>>>>>>>it's more than likely a computer crash.  NVDA works better than 
>>>>>>>>Narrator,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>which is included with Windows, and it lets you choose the speech
>>>>>>>>synthesizer you want to use if it is SAPI compliant.  It has its own
>>>>>>>>built-in speech synthesizer, but you probably wouldn't want to use 
>>>>>>>>it.
>>>>>>>>It lets me finish what I'm doing before I either try to restart JAWS 
>>>>>>>>or
>>>>>>>>reboot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gary King
>>>>>>>> w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Kerri" <shalom75@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 2:58 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: screen reader superiority
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello, all. It is as has previously been mentioned, beneficial to 
>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>> to have one other screen reader besides Jaws. The sighted folks 
>>>>>>>>> use two
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> or more graphics programs so why are we any different? It is best 
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> to rely excusively on one.
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Gary King" <w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 12:54 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for Zdenek's questions about which screen reader is better, I 
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> suggested he try them out for himself.  No one screen reader meets
>>>>>>>>> everyone's needs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for Armond's petition idea, I expressed my opinion of the value 
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>> petitions based on past performance.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And as for your admonishment, I see now that your name is Gerald, 
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> James;
>>>>>>>>> I thought for a minute there that you were the list moderator.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gary King
>>>>>>>>> w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 2:33 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you guys take this discussion off list?  If you want to 
>>>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> bashing FS or discuss alternatives to JAWS, do it elsewhere.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gerald
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 3:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> but thee real question is is windoweyes better than jaws? In 
>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>> areas is it better in which areas is it worse?
>>>>>>>>>>> Zdenek
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Gary King" <w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 9:02 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Zddenek,
>>>>>>>>>>>> The other major screen reader is Window-Eyes.  If you monitor 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> GW-Micro
>>>>>>>>>>>> list, you will see that users of this screen reader have 
>>>>>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>>>>>> with it as
>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the free screen readers, if a user's needs are simple,
>>>>>>>>>>>> reading email,
>>>>>>>>>>>> surfing the net, etc., one of them will probably meet his 
>>>>>>>>>>>> needs.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Otherwise,
>>>>>>>>>>>> he will have to pay and pay again to keep up-to-date.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the FBI, which you have mentioned more than once in your
>>>>>>>>>>>> messages,
>>>>>>>>>>>> now that they have your email address from reading the JAWS 
>>>>>>>>>>>> list,
>>>>>>>>>>>> they have
>>>>>>>>>>>> probably tracked you down already and are closing in on you as 
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>>>>>> this.  Run!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Gary King
>>>>>>>>>>>> w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:13 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can someone finally spelled out thee real alternatives for me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> them are better than jaws please! I hear on this list that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are real
>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternatives but nothing specific as to what is bbetter than 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> jaws
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know an alternative superior to jaws just say it so all of us 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>>>>> benefit. For instance the authors of linux distribution vinux 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> admit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the speech software for linux is still more limited tthan jaws 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> feel comfortable buying a mac, specially since FBI cqan get a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hold
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info and as well as importantly the cost of mac acceeds the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> upgrade of jaws many times. So any real superior alternatives, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just a talk and being fed up with a corporation named freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>> scientific?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder whether users of other screen readers don't have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar
>>>>>>>>>>>>> complains about their own software.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many thanks ofr a clear and specific answer to which software 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> superior
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zddenek
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Dorothy Ingram-Gorban" 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Dorothy.ingram-gorban@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "org, jfw@freelists. " <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 4:25 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John it has obviously served you well in its time and may 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ,but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a wise manufacturer of any product who  listens to its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customers,and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are the blind world wide, some have never been subsidised but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> savings, some on this list are in residential nursing homes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fixed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> income, and still loyal to fs, but if fs fails to listen,now 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all times
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the concerns of its customer base it will fail in the same 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> famous products have done in the past, for the first time 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choices, and whether or not fs is wise I think will soon be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards  Dorothy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "John R. Vaughn" <jrvaughn44@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 12:35 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intentionally!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I concur with your sentiments.  I have  been using Jaws for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20 years
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and it kept me employed, enjoying life and now enjoying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retirement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FS and Jaws are not the be all and end all, but they have to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that works for folks.  If it is not working for you, move on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this is a Jaws list to be a positive support to other jaws 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lets
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this or I will move on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John in sunny florida
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 6:13 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intentionally!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's my understanding that eloquence is a history, but I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scientific better check out with them. I did not mean to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crriticize the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other fellow just asking to be more thoughtful and careful 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> words.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to me that on this list there has become fashinable 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rightly so to critisize jaws but noone suggests better 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missing something?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zdenek
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Farfar Carlson" <dgcarlson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 5:44 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intentionally!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zdenek,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree that the statement is almost meant to be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inflammatory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You wrote: "I believe that they are leaving eloquence 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> focusing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using the realspeak  voices..."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just to clarify, did you mean that they are moving away 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eloquence
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will instead push to use RealSpeak voices?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd not be happy with using only RealSpeak for my 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> day-to-day
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 07:48
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intentionally!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's a pretty strong claim to make. In any rate I believe 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leaving eloquence instead of focusing on using the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realspeak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can download for free, so perhaps that may explain the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zdenek
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Devona" <djasister@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 4:31 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intentionally!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did they fix it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Armond" <armond1980@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 8:19 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many of you might find the following email exchange 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mine and Freedom Scientific's Jonathan Mosen shocking or,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frustrating. Basically, it describes a Unicode-related 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bug in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> newer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releases of JAWS 11 which later turned out to be an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intentional move
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the point of Freedom Scientific to get users to purchase 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right-to-left language pack from a dealer--at a higher
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost--though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is against the spirit of the Unicode feature. Here's my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friend's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> message--note that he himself doesn't have a blog or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> venue to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concerns and isn't interested in pursuing that line of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> action
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> various reasons, so I'm doing that on his behalf and on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behalf of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those who have been affected:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Jonathan,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please forgive me for sending you this message. The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bug is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> serious that I decided to notify you as I don't know to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FreedomScientific employee it should be sent. This 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> affects the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> latest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JAWS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11 update.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As you know, each unicode symbol or character has a value 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hex. For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance, the Persian or Arabic character "?" ("Alef") 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value: U+627.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now JAWS 11 interprets hex values in the form of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. That is, for instance, the letter "Alef" with the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> U+627
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read is "Yaa hamzeh" which has the hex value of U+626. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strange, but the bug indeed affects all unicode symbols
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modified in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eloq.sbl! This means that I can't use the Eloquence 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> engine to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> type or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> characters in Persian and Arabic because what I type or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cursor points to will be read as something else by JAWS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11.0.1447.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you please inform JAWS developers about this bug? I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> downgrade to the previous JAWS 11 release.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amir
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My friend's second message:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just as a follow-up to my previous message, this bug 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> affects
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of NumPad5 in a slightly different way. That is, if 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NumPad5 is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pressed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> once on a Unicode character which has a certain value in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eloq.sbl,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JAWS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrectly reports that character in the form of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unicode
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minus 1. However, if NumPad5 is pressed twice on a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unicode
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> character
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its phonetic representation, JAWS incorrectly reads it in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> form of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual Unicode value plus 1. Just thought I'd pass this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finding, too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amir
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan's reply:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Amir, the issue you've advised me of is actually a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JAWS. If you could please let me know your serial number,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll look
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your situation further and see if there's anything we can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My friend's reply:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Jonathan,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's a bit strange because the JAWS online help still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indicates
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unicode symbols can be added for engines like Eloquence 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eloq.sbl is mentioned, too. At any rate, am I correct in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assuming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the future it would be impossible to use Eloquence to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> type
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modified Unicode symbols and get correct feedback? May I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decision has been made?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I live in a country which is now under various 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sanctions, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> credit cards or PayPal to pay for any app including JAWS, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it in demo mode. The only exception to this is, as you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use apps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> test. On the other hand, I heavily depend on JAWS for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Persian letter by letter, using my modified Eloq.sbl file 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combination
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with Eloquence, because Persian doesn't have a TTS 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> engine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would it be possible to kindly make changes to the status 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quo?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amir
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan's reply:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Amir, JAWS now requires a language processor to work 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arabic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hebrew correctly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This can be sourced from our Arabic distributor 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Medialog -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.medialog.ws
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My friend's final reply:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Jonathan,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the note regarding the Arabic distributor of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FreedomScientific
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products. However, following the URL which you  provided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> results in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display of a webpage with an error message, regardless of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> browser
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used, indicating that the page cannot be displayed. Do 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happen to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a download link for that language processor? As I badly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> processor, your help would be greatly appreciated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For your information, I'm pasting the error message which 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both French and English below.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Medialog Accessibilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 404 - Fichier ou répertoire introuvable. frame
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Erreur de serveur
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 404 - Fichier ou répertoire introuvable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> La ressource que vous recherchez a peut-être été 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supprimée,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> renommée
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ou
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> est temporairement indisponible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 404 - Fichier ou répertoire introuvable. frame end
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The page cannot be found frame
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The page cannot be found
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The page you are looking for might have been removed, had 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please try the following:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . Make sure that the Web site address displayed in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bar of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> browser is spelled and formatted correctly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . If you reached this page by clicking a link, contact 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Web
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> site
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> administrator to alert them that the link is incorrectly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> formatted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . Click the Back button to try another link.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTTP Error 404 - File or directory not found.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Internet Information Services  (IIS)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Technical Information (for support personnel)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . Go to Microsoft Product Support Services and perform a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> title
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> search
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the words HTTP and 404.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . Open IIS Help, which is accessible in IIS Manager 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (inetmgr),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> search
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for topics titled Web Site Setup, Common Administrative 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tasks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> About
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Custom Error Messages.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The page cannot be found frame end
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amir
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, do you think this intentionally-introduced bug, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> affects
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right-to-left languages, shouldn't be addressed in JAWS 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interestingly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even the first iterations of JAWS 11 didn't exhibit this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bug,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> later releases do. I sincerely hope Freedom Scientific 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responsibly without thinking about the extra copies it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sell to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who do not even need an Arabic or Hebrew TTS engine to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right-to-left languages. This is like getting Windows 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> countries to purchase localized releases of Windows just 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read and write in their own native languages.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BTW, if you can remember, my friend Amir has been behind 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Symbian-oriented MobileSpace blog and also participates 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beta
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> testing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain accessibility-related products for the visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Armond
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives located at: 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rather
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rather
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contact the list owner at 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx$U«zV­yÙbzK
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  hhTêZ èm¶YÿÃ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  ­ç ¢k
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?éí?øor?¿IÊâ¦Ø§,f¢-)à-+-?Ûiÿùb²Û-.èÝ.Ê&þX¬¶)ß¡È"þÇ+S>h,¶©?+az7ar??
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bâ²Ø§²ÚîrبzÄè¦<-jg¬±¨ ¶yúèsØb²f¢-)à-+-±éÝjg¬±¨
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ¶^ß·ª¹ë-~·z-+-²SàÂ+a¶ °¢·nzË>±Êâm觶 ¬¹¸ÞrÙb à+r 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ¯zÉhq«^u«a¶Ú
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ÿ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0~·z-+-²SàýªÜ?+Þ³øßÀ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mz¹Ú¶+Þj·!S÷¬-? µçZ¶ m§ÿçÚv>nWo¢oÉ dY¢µ¢ Ú0±ýµã »ö
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> f"?ò¢èZ½æ§ÉÊ'qê籦èºÛazX¬¶s,¶·oz+ÞuúèsØ^-+-¢»a{ ²¶ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ¥SËb±·¢z
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> î Ú'¢Úh²Ûazkh¶ ¥SËQjØ^­Ê'µ§-¶ ¥SËhÂw«jØßÁ§fS{ ­ç¥SËl
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rather
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contact the list owner at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx$zyz T ¶Ã­¢??rI¦,--?ÿ²..þ¶¡þS,?zr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ²²rz¦j±¶z¶v¢~-²N²rys²--±j±¶Â¹~-²Â¶¢z±m¶¹r
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rzqu¶ÿ~-²ý?³Àz¶jS-µ¶§Ún¢ ¢ ±ãö"¢½Éq±ºz¶¶zus-¢{¶S±z
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ¢²z¶Sj­µ¶SÂjÁS­S
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rather
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contact
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3054 - Release 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08/06/10
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08:37:00
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rather
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contact the list owner at 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx$U«zV­yÙbzK
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  hhTêZ èm¶YÿÃ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  ­ç ¢k
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?éí?øor?¿IÊâ¦Ø§,f¢-)à-+-?Ûiÿùb²Û-.èÝ.Ê&þX¬¶)ß¡È"þÇ+S>h,¶©?+az7ar??
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bâ²Ø§²ÚîrبzÄè¦<-jg¬±¨ ¶yúèsØb²f¢-)à-+-±éÝjg¬±¨
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ¶^ß·ª¹ë-~·z-+-²SàÂ+a¶ °¢·nzË>±Êâm觶 ¬¹¸ÞrÙb à+r 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ¯zÉhq«^u«a¶Ú ÿ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0~·z-+-²SàýªÜ?+Þ³øßÀ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mz¹Ú¶+Þj·!S÷¬-? µçZ¶ m§ÿçÚv>nWo¢oÉ dY¢µ¢ Ú0±ýµã »ö
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> f"?ò¢èZ½æ§ÉÊ'qê籦èºÛazX¬¶s,¶·oz+ÞuúèsØ^-+-¢»a{ ²¶ ¥SËb±·¢z
>>>>>>>>>>>>> î Ú'¢Úh²Ûazkh¶ ¥SËQjØ^­Ê'µ§-¶ ¥SËhÂw«jØßÁ§fS{ ­ç¥SËl
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>>>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>>>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> subject
>>>>>>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>>>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> list, or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> list. Rather contact the list owner at
>>>>>>>>>>>> jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx$U«zV­yÙbzK  hhTêZ èm¶YÿÃ
>>>>>>>>>>>>  ­ç ¢k
>>>>>>>>>>>> ?éí?øor?¿IÊâ¦Ø§,f¢-)à-+-?Ûiÿùb²Û-.èÝ.Ê&þX¬¶)ß¡È"þÇ+S>h,¶©?+az7ar??
>>>>>>>>>>>> bâ²Ø§²ÚîrبzÄè¦<-jg¬±¨ ¶yúèsØb²f¢-)à-+-±éÝjg¬±¨
>>>>>>>>>>>> ¶^ß·ª¹ë-~·z-+-²SàÂ+a¶ °¢·nzË>±Êâm觶 ¬¹¸ÞrÙb à+r ¯zÉhq«^u«a¶Ú 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ÿ
>>>>>>>>>>>> 0~·z-+-²SàýªÜ?+Þ³øßÀ
>>>>>>>>>>>> mz¹Ú¶+Þj·!S÷¬-? µçZ¶ m§ÿçÚv>nWo¢oÉ dY¢µ¢ Ú0±ýµã »ö
>>>>>>>>>>>> f"?ò¢èZ½æ§ÉÊ'qê籦èºÛazX¬¶s,¶·oz+ÞuúèsØ^-+-¢»a{ ²¶ ¥SËb±·¢z
>>>>>>>>>>> î Ú'¢Úh²Ûazkh¶ ¥SËQjØ^­Ê'µ§-¶ ¥SËhÂw«jØßÁ§fS{ ­ç¥SËl
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the 
>>>>>>>>>> subject
>>>>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the 
>>>>>>>>>> list,
>>>>>>>>>> or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. 
>>>>>>>>>> Rather
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
>>>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the 
>>>>>>>>> list,
>>>>>>>>> or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. 
>>>>>>>>> Rather
>>>>>>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
>>>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the 
>>>>>>>>> list,
>>>>>>>>> or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. 
>>>>>>>>> Rather
>>>>>>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject 
>>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the 
>>>>>>>> list, or
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>>>>>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject 
>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the 
>>>>>>> list, or
>>>>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>>>>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject 
>>>>>> line.
>>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, 
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
>>>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> JFW related links:
>>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>>> Scripting mailing list:
>>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
>>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject 
>>>>> line.
>>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>>> Alternative archives located at:
>>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, 
>>>>> or the
>>>>> way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather 
>>>>> contact the
>>>>> list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> JFW related links:
>>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>> Scripting mailing list: 
>>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>>> JFW List instructions:
>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to 
>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject 
>>>> line.
>>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>>> Alternative archives located at: 
>>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>>
>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, 
>>>> or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather 
>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>> --
>>> JFW related links:
>>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>> Scripting mailing list: 
>>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>>> JFW List instructions:
>>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to 
>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
>>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>>> Alternative archives located at: 
>>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>>
>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or 
>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather 
>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> --
>> JFW related links:
>> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>> Scripting mailing list: 
>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
>> JFW List instructions:
>> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to 
>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
>> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>> Alternative archives located at: 
>> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>>
>> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or 
>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather 
>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
> --
> JFW related links:
> JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
> Scripting mailing list: 
> http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
> JFW List instructions:
> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to 
> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> Alternative archives located at: 
> http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html
>
> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or 
> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather 
> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 

--
JFW related links:
JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
Scripting mailing list: 
http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
JFW List instructions:
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to 
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
Alternative archives located at: 
http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html

If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the 
way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the 
list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
JFW related links:
JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
Scripting mailing list: 
http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
JFW List instructions:
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to 
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
Alternative archives located at: 
http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html

If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the 
way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the 
list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Other related posts: