Robert, The things that you are saying are more imaginary than real. Honestly. Certainly visual attractiveness is one important element in how things are designed for most people's use, but the things that screw us up trying to use Jaws aren't just some silly decorative stuff as I keep hearing blind people say, which sounds just a bit wacky to me. It has to do with just labeling and coding and what you and I think of as practical screen reader friendly concerns, and I think these things can be easily enough managed by designers often without having to sacrifice how they want something to look. And one more thing, which I hope others I see responding to this thread will consider: It isn't about whether the mouse is quicker than the keyboard in a race. Mouse use requires just to learn how to move the mouse and push a couple of buttons, and it goes along with a graphical interface that is, indeed, more intuitive and easy to grasp for most users without question than our keyboard approach and all the things we have to learn in order to use such a method. I know you can set up a race and have a blind person format, type and spell check a letter in Word faster than some sighted guy with a mouse, if you need to do that, but life isn't about that at all. No one's counting milliseconds about anything like that. What makes the GUI desirable and has enabled so many people to come into the personal computer age has been not just the mouse alone. It isn't like that. If you knew what it is like to just look at an interface and, in a flash, be able to think "Oh, I see, I just click there to start this process and then, oh, another button lights up and I click on that and. there you go. Wow, that was easy." It just goes so much differently and so much more differently, the way you approach something when looking at it. This is very hard to explain to people who don't have a basis for comparison in their experience. I don't know. I'm outta this thread. It makes me sad when people start in again about how the sightlings need to have their consciousness raised so that every pinball machine can be played by deaf, dumb and blind wizards, and that would be much more true and profound. It's just not true. I'll defend blind people against sighted prejudice, too, for sure. I hope that is clear. But because I spend time on these lists, I see so much abstract, angry guessing about the inferiority of the sighted world. All we need is intelligently coded Web pages and program interfaces so we can access them our way while the rest of the people access them their way. That's accessibility that's the issue, not something about blind versus sighted culture, or the frivolousness of the GUI. This all just comes out of resentment. Fight for accessibility, don't waste time bad-mouthing the sighted world. Most of the insults are way off the mark in terms of reality. end of rant and in my humble opinion,as we say. If anyone really wants to discuss this further, please contact me personally at yardbird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I'm not going to keep opening messages in this thread anymore, because it's already distressed me enough. I assume only two kinds of people will write me off list, either inveterate toxic flamers, in which case do what you wanna do, and also people who are more thoughtful and can contribute knowledgeably to the discussion. That's okay, either one. But I don't want to go back and forth with this, as I'm sure our mod will appreciate. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RAWest" <rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 3:22 PM Subject: RE: AVG I just believe that sometimes software manufacturers Don't try to look at how there design will impact different types of users. I think that they believe that if it looks fancy and has allot of different types of graphics then the software must be a better solution than the one that looks so simple to use. Robert To find me you can do the following. Skype id: rawest24 Aim id: rawest24 EMail: rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Yardbird Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 5:38 PM To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: AVG Hi Robert, I agree completely, from the standpoint of blind accessibility. But I don't think I'd be so sure that those interfaces you and I find difficult to manage with Jaws are necessarily some silly so-called "eye candy" that looks spiffy to some designer but in fact is impossible for a sighted end user to understand. I wouldn't assume that, I don't think, just out of resentment. But I was normally sighted for most of my life, so I really feel secure saying this. If you're coming from another perspective, I can see where it might be tempting to assume that the various difficult interfaces a blind person encounters daily are also confounding for other people, and that wouldn't likely be true. There are design issues that have to do with operational logic and ergonomics, but as issues they rarely overlap in a meaningful way with how a blind person might perceive them. Just saying that gently. Not trying to fight over anything. I agree with your preference for accessible interfaces, absolutely. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RAWest" <rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: RE: AVG We are a small minority. People today think about pretty graphics not about a few who might not be able to access there stuff. For me I always think that simple is the best way of going about things. I also believe that most people, the non techy types also like it to be simple. Just do what they have to without allot of nonsense. So now if AVG is going to go down the road of wanting a program that inhibits me from using it without allot of grief then I will just move on to another program where performance is the #1 job and appearance is the number 2 job. A company that takes the time to make there program accessible is going to always get my business. Robert To find me you can do the following. Skype id: rawest24 Aim id: rawest24 EMail: rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Yardbird Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 3:47 PM To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: AVG Thanks. That is indeed what you're saying here. Thanks for explaining. Seems like a curious business model. I wonder what the rationale is. And why they're "making" people convert ("migrate") to free edition version 8? Any idea why? Some profit motive I can't easily infer? Or maybe a more generous motive, like that they have a new and better way of compiling virus definitions and the new method needed a new version of the program to accommodate that, and they had no idea that playing around with the interface just to give it a new look would inconvenience screen reader users? Tanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RAWest" <rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 12:26 PM Subject: RE: AVG That is what I am saying.. They are only eliminating the free 7.5 version so people have to use there 8.0 version. Now from what I understand paid versions will still function. I have not heard of a cut off date for those yet. To find me you can do the following. Skype id: rawest24 Aim id: rawest24 EMail: rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Yardbird Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 3:04 PM To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: AVG Robert, Please fill in the blanks. By saying this, are you implying that your paid version of 7.5 not only is nicely accessible, but isn't about to be obsolesced by the company, as the free edition is? Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RAWest" <rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 11:43 AM Subject: RE: AVG I have a paid for version. To find me you can do the following. Skype id: rawest24 Aim id: rawest24 EMail: rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Yardbird Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 12:50 PM To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: AVG Or until AVG stops providing virus definition updates in less than two weeks... ----- Original Message ----- From: "RAWest" <rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:16 AM Subject: RE: AVG Hello Well if you want or need to get to things like the virus vault, or make adjustments to some of the default settings then it becomes a bit of a pain. Other than that I will stay with AVG 7.5 Until AVG, or FS resolves the issue. Heard FS was working on a patch to fix the user interface issue. Robert To find me you can do the following. Skype id: rawest24 Aim id: rawest24 EMail: rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx _____ From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jane Withers Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 11:47 AM To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: AVG When you download the newer AVG free version and if everything is set up to update and run automatically, why does it matter if JAWS does not guide you through the interface? -- JFW related links: JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/ Scripting mailing list: http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com JFW List instructions: To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. 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