Re: AVG

Robert,

The things that you are saying are more imaginary than real. Honestly. 
Certainly visual attractiveness is one important element in how things are 
designed for most people's use, but the things that screw us up trying to 
use Jaws aren't just some silly decorative stuff as I keep hearing blind 
people say, which sounds just a bit wacky to me. It has to do with just 
labeling and coding and what you and I think of as practical screen reader 
friendly concerns, and I think these things can be easily enough managed by 
designers often without having to sacrifice how they want something to look.

And one more thing, which I hope others I see responding to this thread will 
consider: It isn't about whether the mouse is quicker than the keyboard in a 
race. Mouse use requires just to learn how to move the mouse and push a 
couple of buttons, and it goes along with a graphical interface that is, 
indeed, more intuitive and easy to grasp for most users without question 
than our keyboard approach  and all the things we have to learn in order to 
use such a method. I know you can set up a race and have a blind person 
format, type and spell check a letter in Word faster than some sighted guy 
with a mouse, if you need to do that, but life isn't about that at all. No 
one's counting milliseconds about anything like that. What makes the GUI 
desirable and has enabled so many people to come into the personal computer 
age has been not just the mouse alone. It isn't like that. If you knew what 
it is like to just look at an interface and, in a flash, be able to think 
"Oh, I see, I just click there to start this process and then, oh, another 
button lights up and I click on that and. there  you go. Wow, that was 
easy."

It just goes so much differently and so much more differently, the way you 
approach something when looking at it. This is very hard to explain to 
people who don't have a basis for comparison in their experience.

I don't know. I'm outta this thread. It makes me sad when people start in 
again about how the sightlings need to have their consciousness raised so 
that every pinball machine can be played by deaf, dumb and blind wizards, 
and that would be much more true and profound. It's just not true.

I'll defend blind people against sighted prejudice, too, for sure. I hope 
that is clear. But because I spend time on these lists, I see so much 
abstract, angry guessing about the inferiority of the sighted world. All we 
need is intelligently coded Web pages and program interfaces so we can 
access them our way while the rest of the people access them their way. 
That's accessibility that's the issue, not something about blind versus 
sighted culture, or the frivolousness of the GUI. This all just comes out of 
resentment. Fight for accessibility, don't waste time bad-mouthing the 
sighted world. Most of the insults are way off the mark in terms of reality.

end of rant and in my humble opinion,as we say. If anyone really wants to 
discuss this further, please contact me personally at 
yardbird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I'm not going to keep opening messages in this 
thread anymore, because it's already distressed me enough. I assume only two 
kinds of people will write me off list, either inveterate toxic flamers, in 
which case do what you wanna do, and also people who are more thoughtful and 
can contribute knowledgeably to the discussion. That's okay, either one. But 
I don't want to go back and forth with this, as I'm sure our mod will 
appreciate.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RAWest" <rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: AVG


I just believe that sometimes software manufacturers Don't try to look at
how there design will impact different types of users.

I think that they believe that if it looks fancy and has allot of different
types of graphics then the software must be a better solution than the one
that looks so simple to use.

Robert




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-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Yardbird
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 5:38 PM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: AVG

Hi Robert,
I agree completely, from the standpoint of blind accessibility. But I don't
think I'd be so sure that those interfaces you and I find difficult to
manage with Jaws are necessarily some silly so-called "eye candy" that looks
spiffy to some designer but in fact is impossible for a sighted end user to
understand. I wouldn't assume that, I don't think, just out of resentment.
But I was normally sighted for most of my life, so I really feel secure
saying this. If you're coming from another perspective, I can see where it
might be tempting to assume that the various difficult interfaces a blind
person encounters daily are also confounding for other people, and that
wouldn't likely be true. There are design issues that have to do with
operational logic and ergonomics, but as issues they rarely overlap in a
meaningful way with how a blind person might perceive them.

Just saying that gently. Not trying to fight over anything. I agree with
your preference for accessible interfaces, absolutely.
----- Original Message -----
From: "RAWest" <rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 2:11 PM
Subject: RE: AVG


We are a small minority.  People today think about pretty graphics not about
a few who might not be able to access there stuff.

For me I always think that simple is the best way of going about things.

I also believe that most people, the non techy types also like it to be
simple.  Just do what they have to without allot of nonsense.

So now if AVG is going to go down the road of wanting a program that
inhibits me from using it without allot of grief then I will just move on to
another program where performance is the #1 job and appearance is the number
2 job.

A company that takes the time to make there program accessible is going to
always get my business.

Robert





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-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Yardbird
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 3:47 PM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: AVG

Thanks. That is indeed what you're saying here. Thanks for explaining. Seems
like a curious business model. I wonder what the rationale is. And why
they're "making" people convert ("migrate") to free edition version 8? Any
idea why? Some profit motive I can't easily infer? Or maybe a more generous
motive, like that they have a new and better way of compiling virus
definitions and the new method needed a new version of the program to
accommodate that, and they had no idea that playing around with the
interface just to give it a new look would inconvenience screen reader
users?

Tanks.

----- Original Message -----
From: "RAWest" <rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: AVG


That is what I am saying..

They are only eliminating the free 7.5 version so people have to use there
8.0 version.

Now from what I understand paid versions will still function.  I have not
heard of a cut off date for those yet.





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-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Yardbird
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 3:04 PM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: AVG

Robert,

Please fill in the blanks. By saying this, are you implying that your paid
version of 7.5 not only is nicely accessible, but isn't about to be
obsolesced by the company, as the free edition is?

Thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "RAWest" <rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: AVG


I have a paid for version.





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-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Yardbird
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 12:50 PM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: AVG

Or until AVG stops providing virus definition updates in less than two
weeks...

----- Original Message -----
From: "RAWest" <rawest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:16 AM
Subject: RE: AVG


Hello

Well if you want or need to get to things like the virus vault, or make
adjustments to some of the default settings then it becomes a bit of a pain.

Other than that I will stay with AVG 7.5 Until AVG, or FS resolves the
issue.

Heard FS was working on a patch to fix the user interface issue.

Robert



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  _____

From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Jane Withers
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 11:47 AM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: AVG


When you download the newer AVG free version and if everything is set up to
update and run automatically, why does it matter if JAWS does not guide you
through the interface?

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