[jawsscripts] Frames: was RE: script help.

Geoff,

Sorry for the splintering topic here but I wanted to thank you for your very
well-done comments on frames.  Myself (and I suspect many others) overlook
frames as the "non-programmers" way of making accessibility modifications;
but your message has made me realise how much of an idiot I'm being.

I think that you are correct when you point out that a lot of our grievances
with frames stem from the fact that, in dynamic situations, they can become
unreliable.  A change of screen resolution and your neatly-cultivated frames
become utterly useless - in fact, often detrimental to whatever application
they're used in.  I even saw a frame messed up by a tooltip once and the
only way it read properly was when the mouse cursor was safely positioned
away from the item in question.

Still, you've opened my eyes to the fact that frames have possibilities.  I
reckon that your message should be saved to the jawsscripts wiki for the
benefit of others - how many times, scripters, have you written a script for
yourself without even thinking of a frame?  I'm certainly guilty of that
one.

Sean.

-----Original Message-----
From: jawsscripts-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jawsscripts-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Geoff Chapman
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 11:47 PM
To: jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jawsscripts] script help.

oh BTW stephen, I haven't at all tested Rui's suggested code for solving
this one, but just to inform you too, that in my very very limited knowledge
and experience of scripting, control ID's of windows may sometimes not be
static and/or useful at all! and sometimes, your text that you want auto
spoken, may not even be written in a separate window as defined by the OS
anywayz!  like more and more modern programs in my again very limited
experience, seem to not be doing!
So what people are suggesting up here for your help, may not necessarily
produce the results you desire. that's not because the information is wrong,
it's just because there seem to be such a miriad of ways developers can
build applications, in how they structure them etc, that one solution just
might not work, to bring the actual end user result joy that you desire.
agaomn again not wanting to put you off at all, or make anything seem
superior or out of reach or anything, just seeking to give you some
perimeter perspectives that if you haven't delved around this area much, may
not have occurred to you before.

hanging around here is certainly one cool way to learn things though.

I've learned stacks and continue to learn!

BTW, I've had a fair bit of experience in usage of Frames over the years,
since I've had to reeeeally pull some stops out of them because they at
least had a front end wizared style approach which negated me having to
learn every sylabol of a language, to get the leastest acccessibility joy
done.

So I'd be interested in you perhaps telling more of what you tried and what
failed, in the way of your frames usage. because, frankly, if stuff is not
gunna be moved around to varying screen resolutions etc, I'fe personally
found that frames and frames manager can be a jolly powerful and very useful
tool, to solve some simple access problems, like glancing at stuff fast, or
having stuff automatically spoken in various situations etc.

you said initially that you felt the frames idea may've been inadequate due
to your suspicion that the area where the desired text is being written,
might actually vary or move position.
Is this an actually verified phenomena?  i.e. with careful coordinate
dcheckings of top/bottom lines of text being written etc, or with eyes? or
are you just assuming it due to it not seeming to "work," when you first do
it?

Because like scripting although in my view far simpler, though I realize not
in everyone up here's view who knows the language, Frame debugging has some
knacks to it as well, which can be well worth working through, if you don't
think you're ready to wanna dive in an learn scripting methodologies.

i.e. the simplest one that breaks them is, you need to make sure that the
window Titles it grabs when the frame is being defined, don't contain
non-static information in them, meaning, when you define the frame, the app
window it finds and notes down the title of, might contain certain text,
that won't be there, in other environmental situations.  when it isn't, of
course if window Title matching is taken as one of the validation criteria
for the frame properly firing and doing it's job, then it will fail! because
that text which was there when the frame was defined, is now gone, or
changed! so it's vital to just go into frames manager, and then into the
properties of the frame your seeking to define to speak any new text that
enters it, and suss out what the window title has in it, or even just
disable window title totally at present, from being classified as validation
criteria, then saving your frame changes as you exit frames manager, and
then seeing if your frame works.
Also, using the jawsKey+control+A keystroke, to display all active frames in
virtual viewer, can help you to debug, because you can see easily then
whether your frame really is spanning the full content of the area your new
text keeps being written in.
hth.

geoff c.

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