Besides, if you want to learn to write scripts, you'll soon discover how quickly a single misplaced character breaks things. At 10:28 AM 11/17/2011, you wrote: >I think it was pretty clear Chris made that comment tongue in >cheek. I'd >suggest taking a step back before assuming every comment is a >criticism >and replying with such negativity. > >To be honest, I thought it was a worthwhile correction, although in >reading deeper into the email, it was clear it was just a typo. Since >not everyone reads every line of every message, I still thought it >was a >valuable correction and done in a light hearted way. > >On 17/11/11 09:18, Andre Williams wrote: > > Wow, you can't find anything better to do with yourself than > make these > > completely insignificant corrections? > > > > Someone out there is probably feeling sorry for you. > > > > Say goodbye. > > > > A-W > > > > ---- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@xxxxxxxxx> > > To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:08 AM > > Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: Easier way of writing scripts > > > > > > uh it's hot spot clicker, not slicker. *LOL* > > although it is pretty slick. > > > > At 11:02 PM 11/16/2011, you wrote: > >> Regarding HotSpotSlicker... This message alone has tons of great > >> info! Thank > >> you tremendously Jeff for taking the time to convey this > information. > >> > >> I'm gonna give Jackie's suggestion a shot first and hopefully I > >> will get > >> some positive results. If not I'll try the more automated > >> HotSpotClicker > >> utility and hopefully it will give me a better idea as to what is > >> happening > >> in Jaws' brain. > >> > >> By the way, does anyone know what programming language was used to > >> write > >> jaws? > >> > >> A-W > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Geoff Chapman" <gch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:18 PM > >> Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: Easier way of writing scripts > >> > >> > >> HI. > >> > >> I was fortunate enough to be in on the ground floor of significant > >> testing/development of hsc with Jim Snowbarger, one seriously > >> compitent > >> scripter in my view, > >> back in 2005/2006, > >> and from my understanding, that was exactly it's purpose! > >> As Christopher highlights it below. > >> > >> I had *exactly* the same desires as A W had, and somehow stumbled > >> upon this > >> app that Jim had constructed, in it's very early stages. And > got sooo > >> excited at what I saw were it's possibilities, that I contacted > >> him to see > >> if i could inspire further development/extension. and Jim > graciously > >> responded! ... yeah. it turned into a bit of a > >> monsterously feature-rich > >> incredibly funky tool! > >> > >> Unfortunately, I kinda moved out of the music industry several > >> years back > >> now, > >> where the applications we wanted to use, were sooo jaws > >> unfriendly, that hsc > >> really became an essential tool for being able to access/drive > >> some of the > >> pluggins we wanted to use in that environ, > >> to facilitate locating/clicking in specific areas on the often > totally > >> graphical, and thus blank to jaws cursor, > >> front-ends of these things. > >> > >> So unfortunately I've been now several years out of the hsc > >> headspace. so > >> am far less useful now as to it's day-to-day operation/state, > than I > >> would've been back in 2006. > >> Like most software, my oppinion is that it's got it's learning > >> curve, and > >> quirky bits that take a bit of getting one's head around, > >> But, having now delvved into more scripting language than I knew > >> back in > >> 2005 when I first started with Jim on this amazing tool, I still > >> think it's > >> caveats are simpler to learn to navigate, than the raw scripting > >> language > >> itself, for solving the types of problems your wanting to > solve Andre. > >> > >> So, in other words, I'd personally encourage you to dig into this > >> tool, if > >> your interested in automation with custom keystrokes within jaws, > >> which it > >> sounds like you pretty much are. > >> > >> It doesn't get talked about up here much, because the real > >> scripter types, > >> who know how to use the language, obviously prefer to utilize > their > >> individual functions/script commands, to specifically meet the > >> requirements > >> of each situation, as you heard doug describe. > >> But, for esssentially non-programmery types, who want a menu > >> driven front > >> end first, to then be able to easily tweak the resultant hotspot > >> definition > >> as needed afterwards, > >> and who can still follow basic logic, I fully believe hsc is an > >> incredibly > >> useful and much needed mid-ground approach. > >> And easier, in my view, than getting one's head around gobs of > >> functions in > >> order to do very simple tasks, as Andre points out. > >> > >> You have no doubt already read comparison's with hsc and frame > >> manager, in > >> the documentation Andre. > >> It's worth thus pointing out, that although hsc does > significantly, > >> significantly more than frames manager ever did, and in my view > >> has a much easier way of manually editing each line of code > that it > >> generates than the frames manager definitions, > >> within the hsc definition editor, reached after instalation, with > >> AltControlShiftF4, > >> The builtin frames manager in jaws itself, can also be made to do > >> some of > >> the things your talking about. particularly if the text of the > >> stuff you > >> wanna click on, is already visible to the jaws cursor, and > thus the > >> FindString type commands, that presumably both frames manager > and hsc > >> functionality both employ, can be used to locate the stuff you > >> wanna click > >> on. > >> > >> So just to make you aware of that. > >> And, of course because frames manager does less, it's arguably a > >> bit simpler > >> to learn. I started with that myself. > >> But, it has it's limitations, and I believe hsc is just a > >> fantastic tool for > >> the types of customizations your talking about. > >> > >> I can remember/will tell you that The single most primary caveat, > >> that most > >> readily, "breaks," hotspot clicker from > >> successfully/reliably clicking on > >> it's assigned, "spot," is, insufficient understanding/handling, of > >> the part > >> of the spot creation wizard which asks the user to remove dynamic > >> information from the titleBars of up to, oh goodness, maybe as > >> many as 4, > >> different window types, that it might deem relevant to the > spot your > >> creating. > >> I.e. Application window, TopLevel Window, RealWindow, and > >> CurrentWindow. > >> This is called the, "window validation criteria." > >> Frames Manager has it as well. > >> > >> > >> And, although to the uninitiated, it can initialy appear as > just an > >> irrelevant pain that one would prefer not to have to deal with, > >> as it's name suggests, it's actual purpose is, to help insure, > >> that one > >> doesn't just perform a, blind, mouseClick, at a given spot, > >> without first > >> seeking to validate that the environment that was present when you > >> defined > >> the spot, is still sufficiently there, to warrant a fair shot at > >> clicking > >> there. > >> , that the result you initially defined the spot to bring about, > >> at spot > >> definition time, > >> is still gunna be valid, to bring about again, > >> at spot activation time. > >> i.e. when you hit your hotkey for the click. > >> So, it's kinda a good thing, but it doesn't appear like that when > >> you first > >> get into hsc. > >> > >> However, of course, the other side of this spectrum that your > juggling > >> against, is that if the environment validation criteria, is > left too > >> strict/tight, > >> then the least change in any one of the windowNames, which might > >> not at all > >> mean that your spot has become inOpperable, > >> will invalidate the match criteria, and hsc will think it's no > >> longer safe > >> to click there, and will prevent you from doing so. bringing a, > >> "Donk," > >> sound from your computer, and the dreaded "hotspot failed," > message. > >> and if you leave all your windowNames validation criteria totally > >> unedited, > >> as the hotspot wizard first presents them to you, almost certainly > >> your spot > >> will fail the very next time you open your app, since many > legitimate > >> changes can happen in those window names, which may not invalidate > >> your spot > >>from doing what it was designed for. > >> > >> If that makes sense. I'm not very adept at explaining complex > >> concepts and > >> making them simple to understand. I apologize for this. > >> > >> So Now the thing is, it's pretty crucial, to remove anything from > >> each of > >> these window types, during the hotspot creation wizard. This is > >> particularly > >> relevant for the first spot you define, since it tries to, > >> "learn,"/remember, the answers given in the definition of the > >> first spot in > >> a given environment, if it finds similar criteria in subsequent > >> hotspots, > >> defined in that same environment. > >> notice I'm using the term, "spots," and, "hotspots," > >> interchangeably here. > >> They mean the same thing. > >> > >> now there's two primary caveats to be aware of in doing this. > >> one simple one is, that you need to watch that your sometimes > >> quite lengthy > >> windowName/title, might extend over two lines, rather than one. so > >> make sure > >> you utilize control+Home and control+end, rather than just home > >> and end, > >> whilst navigating the windowName your trimming. > >> > >> The Second slightly more complex problem, is, of course, that you > >> may not > >> necessarily really know, what criteria is going to remain > >> constant, and what > >> not, in your windowNames, as you are messing around in your > >> application. > >> > >> Thus making it rather difficult to really know, what to remove, > >> and what to > >> leave alone. > >> > >> > >> So, my basic rule of thumb for newbys at this, is, to remove > >> anything from > >> these window names, that you aren't absolutely confident will be > >> there, > >> during all the times you want your click to actualy work. > >> And if your unsure, then delete whatever your unsure of. > >> e.g. I almost always recommend deleting the entire > CurrentWindowName, > >> sometimes abbreviated in hsc to just, WindowName, because I've > >> found that > >> this can change so readily, that it often provides more headaches > >> than joys, > >> to leave anything in there as part of validation criteria. > >> > >> Secondly, if you are wanting hsc to look for a particular > >> word/phrase to > >> insure greater reliability for your click spot, if such is visible > >> to jaws > >> cursor, > >> then after obviously placing the jaws cursor at the spot you want > >> to define, > >> and over one of the words, activate the Graphics/Words hotspot > >> creation > >> wizard, using altControlShiftG, rather than the standard > >> AltControlShiftA, > >> wizard. This will then take into account the word or graphic name > >> which may > >> be under the jaws cursor, and ask you questions about how you'd > >> like hsc to > >> treat this. > >> usually searching from topDown, is best, but there may be > >> situations where > >> the spot is near the bottom of a window, that you'd prefer hsc to > >> search > >> bottom up, which you can also choose. > >> Tip: although the wizard may often ask you only about a single > >> word, you can > >> define this to be a longer phrase after the fact, by delving > into the > >> definition for that spot, after completion of the wizard. > >> You'll find a whole bunch of after-the-fact twekable stuff in > >> there, which > >> I'm sure the rather comprehensive documentation will explain in > >> detail for > >> you if desired. > >> > >> oh there's just a million and 1 things I could rave on and on > >> about, in the > >> mastering of hsc. But I think that should do for starters. > >> > >> I will just conclude though, by saying that integration of hsc > >> into the > >> internet explorer environment, is not nearly as simple, as just > >> using it in > >> a local application. for which it was initially designed. > >> for obvious reasons. and this is treated a little in the > >> documentation. > >> There's a bunch of other things you need to be aware of, when > >> doing spots in > >> an app such as internet explorer, given that it can host just sooo > >> many > >> webpage environments, all potentially requiring different > validaition > >> criteria, and maybe a separate hotspot set for each page, which > >> you'd then > >> ultimately like it to load automatically when it detected that > >> webpage. rah > >> rah rah. > >> So I'm not going into that one now. > >> > >> happy clicking. > >> > >> And perhaps ask your questions one by one, as you delve into hsc > >> more as you > >> try things. if you decide it's something you'd like to learn to > >> master. > >> just don't get too frustrated if things don't work out as you > expect > >> straight away. like all software really, specially for us, it's a > >> slower > >> learning curve to getting the result you want, than you wish it > >> was. But, I > >> can tell you from personal experience, I think hsc is a very very > >> funky > >> tool, the stuff it can do, once you learn how to drive it well. > >> and realy > >> dig into it. > >> I believe it can permit blind user access to drive stuff that > would be > >> almost impossible without it, in some applications. > >> > >> > >> Geoff Chapman. > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Christopher Chaltain" <chaltain@xxxxxxxxx> > >> To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 6:31 AM > >> Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: Easier way of writing scripts > >> > >> > >>> I wonder if Hot Spot Clicker from http://hotspotclicker.org/ > >> will help > >>> with Andre's situation. I'm not sure, since I haven't used it > >> myself, > >>> but it looks like it's purpose is to make clicking on different > >> areas of > >>> the screen easier and without having to resort to scripting. > >>> > >>> On 16/11/11 13:20, Doug Lee wrote: > >>>> Your frustration is understandable, but the basic problem is > that > >>>> application developers use many different methods of > >> displaying the > >>>> various parts of their applications, and each method can have > >>>> different accessibility characteristics. In short, each type of > >>>> control in an application can require its own accessibility > >> solution. > >>>> Freedom Scientific writes solutions to what it considers the > most > >>>> common control types, but they simply can't predict or > manage all > >>>> possible situations that happen out there. Since JAWS is > >> scriptable, > >>>> others can help out by coding for more situations; but > still, more > >>>> accessibility issues exist than there are capable hands to > address > >>>> them. > >>>> > >>>> So in summary, the fact that JAWS can't natively handle all the > >>>> applications you may use is as lamentable as it is inevitable. > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:09:41AM -0800, Andre Williams wrote: > >>>> Yes, I think this is the problem with all this scripting > >> business. Look > >>>> at > >>>> the amount of stuff you listed which one has to learn to get > >> started. If > >>>> this is your work then this is something that has to be > >> learned, but if > >>>> you > >>>> are coming at this from the perspective of the regular user > >> needing > >>>> simple > >>>> script features not already existing in jaws, then one must > >> now take > >>>> hours > >>>> and hours of personal time to learn this stuff as well as > >> paying for > >>>> tutorials and stuff. I just want to make jaws quickly click on > >> a tab on > >>>> my > >>>> screen, but it appears I have to learn tons of scripting > >> first. I am not > >>>> directing my comments at you Jacky, I'm only conveying my > >> frustration > >>>> with > >>>> what seems like a process that should not be this difficult. I > >> already > >>>> paid > >>>> lots for jaws so I don't plan on continuing to sink more money > >> into it. > >>>> > >>>> Just so I have a better perspective of the investment of time, > >> what will > >>>> go > >>>> into writing a script that will make jaws click on a specific > >> tab with a > >>>> press of a hotkey? I've already studied the layout of the > >> screen a bit > >>>> and > >>>> found that the tabs don't move, nor do the other items I want > >> to access > >>>> with > >>>> hotkeys. Can this type of script be written easily, or do I > >> have to learn > >>>> all the things Jacky suggested? > >>>> > >>>> A-W > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Jackie McBride" <abletec@xxxxxxxxx> > >>>> To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:49 AM > >>>> Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: Easier way of writing scripts > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Andre, there are many ways, depending on the app. Moving to a > >> window > >>>> handle or control ID, doing a findstring(), Looking for a > >> particular > >>>> window class & control ID combination, going thru the window > >> or object > >>>> hierarchy--those are just a few for starters. I can't really > >> be more > >>>> definitive because, as I said, it really depends on the > >> application & > >>>> how it's structured. > >>>> > >>>> I'd recommend u study the basics of scripting manual included > >> in the > >>>> Jaws help topics, as well as some of the jaws scripts which are > >>>> located in the settings/enu directory of your jaws folder. My > >>>> scripting 101 materials are also available for purchase at: > >>>> www.screenreaderscripting.com > >>>> if u feel the other materials aren't sufficient to meet your > >> needs. > >>>> > >>>> On 11/16/11, Andre Williams <andre.williams.1965@xxxxxxxxx> > wrote: > >>>>> HI all, > >>>>> > >>>>> Does anyone know of a more elegant manner of writing a script > >> than > >>>>> specifying every command? I'm looking to refine the > >> accessibility of > >>>>> WordWeb > >>>>> a bit more and would like to not have to use script text > such as > >>>>> page up > >>>>> page up > >>>>> home > >>>>> next word > >>>>> next word > >>>>> say word > >>>>> > >>>>> Is it possible to somehow take the jaws cursor to a specific > >> icon or > >>>>> point > >>>>> on the screen then hit a hotkey to tell Jaws that this is the > >> object I > >>>>> want > >>>>> to use in my script? > >>>>> > >>>>> For example, WordWeb has several tabs. One of these tabs is > >> used to read > >>>>> the > >>>>> Wikipedia article for the word one is wanting to define. I > >> would like to > >>>>> use > >>>>> the jaws scripting functions or keyboard commands to write a > >> script that > >>>>> makes jaws jump directly to this desired Wikipedia tab object > >> without > >>>>> all > >>>>> the PageUp (), Home (), NextWord () commands. > >>>>> > >>>>> If this is possible, please help a brotha out and let me know > >> how this > >>>>> can > >>>>> be done. > >>>>> > >>>>> A-W > >>>>> > >>>>> __________??? > >>>>> > >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at > >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Christopher (CJ) > >>> chaltain@xxxxxxxxx > >>> __________� > >>> > >>> View the list's information and change your settings at > >>> //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts > >>> > >> > >> __________� > >> > >> View the list's information and change your settings at > >> //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts > >> > >> __________� > >> > >> View the list's information and change your settings at > >> //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > CTS MASTERING: PROFESSIONAL MIXING AND MASTERING > > Clear True Sound > > www.ctsmastering.com > > and be sure to "like us" on Facebook: > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/CTS-Mastering/139114066128698 > > > > __________� > > > > View the list's information and change your settings at > > //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts > > > > __________� > > > > View the list's information and change your settings at > > //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts > > > > >-- >Christopher (CJ) >chaltain@xxxxxxxxx >__________� > >View the list's information and change your settings at >//www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts -------------------------------------------------- CTS MASTERING: PROFESSIONAL MIXING AND MASTERING Clear True Sound www.ctsmastering.com and be sure to "like us" on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/CTS-Mastering/139114066128698 __________� View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts