[jawsscripts] Re: Easier way of writing scripts

  • From: "Andre Williams" <andre.williams.1965@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 07:18:00 -0800

Wow, you can't find anything better to do with yourself than make these 
completely insignificant corrections?

Someone out there is probably feeling sorry for you.

Say goodbye.

A-W

---- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:08 AM
Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: Easier way of writing scripts


uh it's hot spot clicker, not slicker. *LOL*
although it is pretty slick.

At 11:02 PM 11/16/2011, you wrote:
>Regarding HotSpotSlicker... This message alone has tons of great
>info! Thank
>you tremendously Jeff for taking the time to convey this information.
>
>I'm gonna give Jackie's suggestion a shot first and hopefully I
>will get
>some positive results. If not I'll try the more automated
>HotSpotClicker
>utility and hopefully it will give me a better idea as to what is
>happening
>in Jaws' brain.
>
>By the way, does anyone know what programming language was used to
>write
>jaws?
>
>A-W
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Geoff Chapman" <gch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:18 PM
>Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: Easier way of writing scripts
>
>
>HI.
>
>I was fortunate enough to be in on the ground floor of significant
>testing/development of hsc with Jim Snowbarger, one seriously
>compitent
>scripter in my view,
>back in 2005/2006,
>and from my understanding, that was exactly it's purpose!
>As Christopher highlights it below.
>
>I had *exactly* the same desires as A W had, and somehow stumbled
>upon this
>app that Jim had constructed, in it's very early stages. And got sooo
>excited at what I saw were it's possibilities, that I contacted
>him to see
>if i could inspire further development/extension. and Jim graciously
>responded! ... yeah. it turned into a bit of a
>monsterously  feature-rich
>incredibly funky tool!
>
>Unfortunately, I kinda moved out of the music industry several
>years back
>now,
>where the applications we wanted to use, were sooo jaws
>unfriendly, that hsc
>really became an essential tool for being able to access/drive
>some of the
>pluggins we wanted to use in that environ,
>to facilitate locating/clicking in specific areas on the often totally
>graphical, and thus blank to jaws cursor,
>  front-ends of these things.
>
>So unfortunately I've been now several years out of the hsc
>headspace.  so
>am far less useful now as to it's day-to-day operation/state, than I
>would've been back in 2006.
>Like most software, my oppinion is that it's got it's learning
>curve, and
>quirky bits that take a bit of getting one's head around,
>But, having now delvved into more scripting language than I knew
>back in
>2005 when I first started with Jim on this amazing tool, I still
>think it's
>caveats are simpler to learn to navigate, than the raw scripting
>language
>itself, for solving the types of problems your wanting to solve Andre.
>
>So, in other words, I'd personally encourage you to dig into this
>tool, if
>your interested in automation with custom keystrokes within jaws,
>which it
>sounds like you pretty much are.
>
>It doesn't get talked about up here much, because the real
>scripter types,
>who know how to use the language, obviously prefer to utilize their
>individual functions/script commands, to specifically meet the
>requirements
>of each situation, as you heard doug describe.
>But, for esssentially non-programmery types, who want a menu
>driven front
>end first, to then be able to easily tweak the resultant hotspot
>definition
>as needed afterwards,
>and who can still follow basic logic, I fully believe hsc is an
>incredibly
>useful and much needed mid-ground approach.
>And easier, in my view, than getting one's head around gobs of
>functions in
>order to do very simple tasks, as Andre points out.
>
>You have no doubt already read comparison's with hsc and frame
>manager, in
>the documentation Andre.
>It's worth thus pointing out, that although hsc does significantly,
>significantly more than frames manager ever did, and in my view
>has a much easier way of manually editing each line of code that it
>generates than the frames manager definitions,
>within the hsc definition editor, reached after instalation, with
>AltControlShiftF4,
>The builtin frames manager in jaws itself, can also be made to do
>some of
>the things your talking about.  particularly if the text of the
>stuff you
>wanna click on, is already visible to the jaws cursor, and thus the
>FindString type commands, that presumably both frames manager and hsc
>functionality both employ, can be used to locate the stuff you
>wanna click
>on.
>
>So just to make you aware of that.
>And, of course because frames manager does less, it's arguably a
>bit simpler
>to learn. I started with that myself.
>But, it has it's limitations, and I believe hsc is just a
>fantastic tool for
>the types of customizations your talking about.
>
>I can remember/will tell you that The single most primary caveat,
>that most
>readily, "breaks," hotspot clicker from
>successfully/reliably  clicking on
>it's assigned, "spot," is, insufficient understanding/handling, of
>the part
>of the spot creation wizard which asks the user to remove dynamic
>information from the titleBars of up to, oh goodness, maybe  as
>many as 4,
>different window types, that it might deem relevant to the spot your
>creating.
>I.e. Application window, TopLevel Window, RealWindow, and
>CurrentWindow.
>This is called the, "window validation criteria."
>Frames Manager has it as well.
>
>
>And, although to the uninitiated, it can initialy appear as just an
>irrelevant  pain that one would prefer not to have to deal with,
>as it's name suggests, it's actual purpose is, to help insure,
>that one
>doesn't just perform a, blind, mouseClick, at a given spot,
>without first
>seeking to validate that the environment that was present when you
>defined
>the spot, is still sufficiently there, to warrant a fair shot at
>clicking
>there.
>, that the result you initially defined the spot to bring about,
>at spot
>definition time,
>is still gunna be valid, to bring about again,
>at spot activation time.
>i.e. when you hit your hotkey for the click.
>So, it's kinda a good thing, but it doesn't appear like that when
>you first
>get into hsc.
>
>However, of course, the other side of this spectrum that your juggling
>against, is that if the environment validation criteria, is left too
>strict/tight,
>then the least change in any one of the windowNames, which might
>not at all
>mean that your spot has become inOpperable,
>will invalidate the match criteria, and hsc will think it's no
>longer safe
>to click there, and will prevent you from doing so. bringing a,
>"Donk,"
>sound from your computer, and the dreaded "hotspot failed," message.
>and if you leave all your windowNames validation criteria totally
>unedited,
>as the hotspot wizard first presents them to you, almost certainly
>your spot
>will fail the very next time you open your app, since many legitimate
>changes can happen in those window names, which may not invalidate
>your spot
>from doing what it was designed for.
>
>If that makes sense. I'm not very adept at explaining complex
>concepts and
>making them simple to understand. I apologize for this.
>
>So Now the thing is, it's pretty crucial, to remove anything from
>each of
>these window types, during the hotspot creation wizard. This is
>particularly
>relevant for the first spot you define, since it tries to,
>"learn,"/remember, the answers given in the definition of the
>first spot in
>a given environment, if it finds similar criteria in subsequent
>hotspots,
>defined in that same environment.
>notice I'm using the term, "spots," and, "hotspots,"
>interchangeably here.
>They mean the same thing.
>
>now there's two primary caveats to be aware of in doing this.
>one simple one is, that you need to watch that your sometimes
>quite lengthy
>windowName/title, might extend over two lines, rather than one. so
>make sure
>you utilize control+Home and control+end, rather than just home
>and end,
>whilst navigating the windowName your trimming.
>
>The Second slightly more complex problem, is, of course, that you
>may not
>necessarily really know, what criteria is going to remain
>constant, and what
>not, in your windowNames, as you are messing around in your
>application.
>
>Thus making it rather difficult to really know, what to remove,
>and what to
>leave alone.
>
>
>So, my basic rule of thumb for newbys at this, is, to remove
>anything from
>these window names, that you aren't absolutely confident will be
>there,
>during all the times you want your click to actualy work.
>And if your unsure, then delete whatever your unsure of.
>e.g. I almost always recommend deleting the entire CurrentWindowName,
>sometimes abbreviated in hsc to just, WindowName, because I've
>found that
>this can change so readily, that it often provides more headaches
>than joys,
>to leave anything in there as part of validation criteria.
>
>Secondly, if you are wanting hsc to look for a particular
>word/phrase  to
>insure greater reliability for your click spot, if such is visible
>to jaws
>cursor,
>then after obviously placing the jaws cursor at the spot you want
>to define,
>and over one of the words, activate the Graphics/Words hotspot
>creation
>wizard, using altControlShiftG, rather than the standard
>AltControlShiftA,
>wizard. This will then take into account the word or graphic name
>which may
>be under the jaws cursor, and ask you questions about how you'd
>like hsc to
>treat this.
>usually searching from topDown, is best, but there may be
>situations where
>the spot is near the bottom of a window, that you'd prefer hsc to
>search
>bottom up, which you can also choose.
>Tip: although the wizard may often ask you only about a single
>word, you can
>define this to be a longer phrase after the fact, by delving into the
>definition for that spot, after completion of the wizard.
>You'll find a whole bunch of after-the-fact twekable stuff in
>there, which
>I'm sure the rather comprehensive documentation will explain in
>detail for
>you if desired.
>
>oh there's just a million and 1 things I could rave on and on
>about, in the
>mastering of hsc.  But I think that should do for starters.
>
>I will just conclude though, by saying that integration of hsc
>into the
>internet explorer environment, is not nearly as simple, as just
>using it in
>a local application. for which it was initially designed.
>for obvious reasons. and this is treated a little in the
>documentation.
>There's a bunch of other things you need to be aware of, when
>doing spots in
>an app such as internet explorer, given that it can host just sooo
>many
>webpage environments, all potentially requiring different validaition
>criteria, and maybe a separate hotspot set for each page, which
>you'd then
>ultimately like it to load automatically when it detected that
>webpage. rah
>rah rah.
>So I'm not going into that one now.
>
>happy clicking.
>
>And perhaps ask your questions one by one, as you delve into hsc
>more as you
>try things. if you decide it's something you'd like to learn to
>master.
>just don't get too frustrated if things don't work out as you expect
>straight away. like all software really, specially for us, it's a
>slower
>learning curve to getting the result you want, than you wish it
>was.  But, I
>can tell you from personal experience, I think hsc is a very very
>funky
>tool, the stuff it can do, once you learn how to drive it well.
>and realy
>dig into it.
>I believe it can permit blind user access to drive stuff that would be
>almost impossible without it, in some applications.
>
>
>Geoff Chapman.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Christopher Chaltain" <chaltain@xxxxxxxxx>
>To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 6:31 AM
>Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: Easier way of writing scripts
>
>
> >I wonder if Hot Spot Clicker from http://hotspotclicker.org/
> will help
> > with Andre's situation. I'm not sure, since I haven't used it
> myself,
> > but it looks like it's purpose is to make clicking on different
> areas of
> > the screen easier and without having to resort to scripting.
> >
> > On 16/11/11 13:20, Doug Lee wrote:
> >> Your frustration is understandable, but the basic problem is that
> >> application developers use many different methods of
> displaying the
> >> various parts of their applications, and each method can have
> >> different accessibility characteristics.  In short, each type of
> >> control in an application can require its own accessibility
> solution.
> >> Freedom Scientific writes solutions to what it considers the most
> >> common control types, but they simply can't predict or manage all
> >> possible situations that happen out there. Since JAWS is
> scriptable,
> >> others can help out by coding for more situations; but still, more
> >> accessibility issues exist than there are capable hands to address
> >> them.
> >>
> >> So in summary, the fact that JAWS can't natively handle all the
> >> applications you may use is as lamentable as it is inevitable.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:09:41AM -0800, Andre Williams wrote:
> >> Yes, I think this is the problem with all this scripting
> business. Look
> >> at
> >> the amount of stuff you listed which one has to learn to get
> started. If
> >> this is your work then this is something that has to be
> learned, but if
> >> you
> >> are coming at this from the perspective of the regular user
> needing
> >> simple
> >> script features not already existing in jaws, then one must
> now take
> >> hours
> >> and hours of personal time to learn this stuff as well as
> paying for
> >> tutorials and stuff. I just want to make jaws quickly click on
> a tab on
> >> my
> >> screen, but it appears I have to learn tons of scripting
> first. I am not
> >> directing my comments at you Jacky, I'm only conveying my
> frustration
> >> with
> >> what seems like a process that should not be this difficult. I
> already
> >> paid
> >> lots for jaws so I don't plan on continuing to sink more money
> into it.
> >>
> >> Just so I have a better perspective of the investment of time,
> what will
> >> go
> >> into writing a script that will make jaws click on a specific
> tab with a
> >> press of a hotkey? I've already studied the layout of the
> screen a bit
> >> and
> >> found that the tabs don't move, nor do the other items I want
> to access
> >> with
> >> hotkeys. Can this type of script be written easily, or do I
> have to learn
> >> all the things Jacky suggested?
> >>
> >> A-W
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Jackie McBride" <abletec@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:49 AM
> >> Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: Easier way of writing scripts
> >>
> >>
> >> Andre, there are many ways, depending on the app. Moving to a
> window
> >> handle or control ID, doing a findstring(), Looking for a
> particular
> >> window class & control ID combination, going thru the window
> or object
> >> hierarchy--those are just a few for starters. I can't really
> be more
> >> definitive because, as I said, it really depends on the
> application &
> >> how it's structured.
> >>
> >> I'd recommend u study the basics of scripting manual included
> in the
> >> Jaws help topics, as well as some of the jaws scripts which are
> >> located in the settings/enu directory of your jaws folder. My
> >> scripting 101 materials are also available for purchase at:
> >> www.screenreaderscripting.com
> >> if u feel the other materials aren't sufficient to meet your
> needs.
> >>
> >> On 11/16/11, Andre Williams <andre.williams.1965@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>> HI all,
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone know of a more elegant manner of writing a script
> than
> >>> specifying every command? I'm looking to refine the
> accessibility of
> >>> WordWeb
> >>> a bit more and would like to not have to use script text such as
> >>> page up
> >>> page up
> >>> home
> >>> next word
> >>> next word
> >>> say word
> >>>
> >>> Is it possible to somehow take the jaws cursor to a specific
> icon or
> >>> point
> >>> on the screen then hit a hotkey to tell Jaws that this is the
> object I
> >>> want
> >>> to use in my script?
> >>>
> >>> For example, WordWeb has several tabs. One of these tabs is
> used to read
> >>> the
> >>> Wikipedia article for the word one is wanting to define. I
> would like to
> >>> use
> >>> the jaws scripting functions or keyboard commands to write a
> script that
> >>> makes jaws jump directly to this desired Wikipedia tab object
> without
> >>> all
> >>> the PageUp (), Home (), NextWord () commands.
> >>>
> >>> If this is possible, please help a brotha out and let me know
> how this
> >>> can
> >>> be done.
> >>>
> >>> A-W
> >>>
> >>> __________???
> >>>
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Christopher (CJ)
> > chaltain@xxxxxxxxx
> > __________�
> >
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
> >
>
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