[jaws-uk] Re: Something very anoying in the new update

Hi Vanja,
I don't really need a work-around solution as checking the "Legacy" button
solves the problem.  Apparently, it is a last resort solution and a step
backwards but I believe, or hope, it is being worked on.

At the moment, I'll leave things as they are and wait and see.

Kindest regards

David


-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Vanja Sudar
Sent: 28 June 2006 16:17
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Something very anoying in the new update


OK, after Dave's description last night I still think I was correct about 
what I said yesterday.  I think that Dave's problem is simply that jaws 
lands him on random field, rather than on the first field where first random

digit from the PIN needs to be enter.  Again, I think this is the easiest 
solution:
1.  You enter customer number, then press next.
2.  Jaws lands you anywhere with in the form, you either press control+h to 
go to the top of the page and press letter H till you hear "your pin".
3.  You move cursor down.  Jaws says "enter random digit from your pin" 
where random is obviously whatever number it asks for.  Move cursor down 
once more jaws says "password edit".
4.  Press enter to go to forms mode.
5.  Enter that first digit whatever it is, as you  enter it jaws automaticly

moves you on to the next field.

If you are reading this Dave and are still not sure about my explanation, 
I'm willing to go trhough this on the phone with you as I'd be surprised if 
this method wouldn't work.  Of course you may be experiencing totally 
different problem than what I described, but on bases of your description 
this is what seems to be a problem to me, so if you wish send me an email 
privatly with your phone number and good time to call or laternativly let me

know if you want to do this and I will send you my number.
Vanja
http://www.sudar.co.uk
MSN messenger: sudar23@xxxxxxxxxxx
AIM: vanja121
Skype: vanja121
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tristram Llewellyn" <tris-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 3:22 PM
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Something very anoying in the new update


If you locate the first of those number entry boxes and press tab does it 
reliably go round those and tell you what they are from there.  This I think

is what the David was having problems with.  He seemed to be suggesting that

either the positioning was random and/or not being announced correctly.
The page I use to get into my bank does this all on the same page to let you

go in, however my credit card does the same sort ot thing in three pages 
which seems less fun.  I don't know whether this is security based or simply

they thought that the best form of design.  Personally the way Nationwide do

it is very civilised I even found a hidden link for screen reader users 
describing the last significant change to the sign in page.

Regards.

Tristram Llewellyn
Sight and Sound Technology
Technical Support
www.sightandsound.co.uk

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Vanja Sudar
  To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 11:47 AM
  Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Something very anoying in the new update


  If this can help, the only thing I notice slightly differently from jaws 
7.0
  when using natwest is that once the first screen in which you have to 
enter
  your customer number is past, jaws is not automiticly focused on first
  editbox to enter a random digit from your pin, so the best thing in this
  case is to do the following: either press shift+h or keep pressing h till
  jaws says "your pin" then move the cursor down to the first edit box, 
which
  will be the field for the first digit from your pin.  The person with the
  problem may be getting confused because after hitting next jaws is not
  always focused on the first field so, like I said, make sure you first
  locate the "your pin" headding then move the virtual cursor to the first
  field and only then enter forms mode and enter your detials.  HTH
  Vanja
  http://www.sudar.co.uk
  MSN messenger: sudar23@xxxxxxxxxxx
  AIM: vanja121
  Skype: vanja121
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Tristram Llewellyn" <tris-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
  To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 11:16 AM
  Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Something very anoying in the new update


  I have tested Jaws 7.10 with www.nationwide.co.uk banking sign in and that
  works OK, the new DOM support isn't making anything more difficult here.
  The systems accross most of these online banking systems are quite similar
  in their operation.  We also have one user on Natwest who is not
  experiencing problems which is puzzling.
  Regards.

  Tristram Llewellyn
  Sight and Sound Technology
  Technical Support
  www.sightandsound.co.uk

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: David
    To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 9:18 PM
    Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Something very anoying in the new update


    Brian,
    Well done, it worked like a dream.

    I've read your notes but I think I'll have to read them again.  Thanks.

    Regards

    David


    -----Original Message-----
    From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
    Behalf Of Brian Hartgen
    Sent: 26 June 2006 18:40
    To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Something very anoying in the new update


    David,

    Try this and let me know if it works.

    1. Start internet explorer.

    2. Bring up the conffiguration manager with insert and number 6 on the
  main
    qwerty keyboard.

    3. Press alt S for set options, H for HTML options.

    4. Shift tab back once to the property sheets and arrow right until you
    reach miscellaneous.

    5. Tab to the check box entitled "use legacy internet explorer support"
  and
    press space to check it.

    6. Press enter to close the dialog.

    7. Press control+s to save the file.

    8. Press alt+F4 to quit the configuration manager.

    NOTES

    This procedure should revert back to legacy support for Internet 
Explorer.
    There is no doubt that pages do behave very differently with the new IE
    support, and you should only use legacy if everything else fails.  My
  reason
    for saying that is clearly the new internet explorer support, delivered
  via
    the Document Object Model, is clearly the way Freedom Scientific intends
  to
    deliver web pages to us in the future.  To that end, the more of us who
  use
    the new support and report to FS when things go wrong, the better.  This
  new
    DOM support is hopefully a stepping stone to greater things in the years
  to
    come and we must support it whenever we can.

    In addition to the differences in the rendering of pages, people will
  notice
    two distinct differences with new DOM support.

    1. When you tab from one link or control to another, a yellow rectangle 
is
    also present.  One of the difficulties with jaws has historically been 
the
    lack of visual feedback concerning precisely what jaws is saying.  This
    rectangle is an aid to sighted individuals. The difficulty for us is 
that
  in
    my view it makes the tab key less responsive.  When you arrow through a
    document, visual focus is not tracked.

    2. Jaws is now better able to handle the difference between data and
  layout
    tables.  For example, if you visit a site such as
    www.tandt-consultancy.com
    Where we have used a layout table to display information, jaws 7.0 and
    before will announce the fact that you are entering and leaving a table.
  As
    blind people, we possibly don't care about that, but we do care about 
data
    tables - those tables such as train time tables which need to be 
processed
    in a tabular way.  Jaws 7.10, using new DOM support, will not indicate 
the
    presence of these layout tables which from a new user standpoint is very
    good indeed.

    I hope I have explained this new concept of Internet support clearly and
    David, I hope my solution works for you.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
  On
    Behalf Of David
    Sent: 26 June 2006 18:06
    To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Something very anoying in the new update

    Hi Tristram,
    I have tested the Natwest webpage again with Jaws 7.0 and had no
  difficulty
    at all.  I then had three attempts with Jaws 7.10 and failed.

    Strangely, the second attempt allowed me to enter three digits in their
    separate fields, or I thought so, then realised i had been asked to 
enter
    the same number twice and that can't be right.  I then entered a
  character,
    only one, and was shot to the top of the page again.

    I have been in touch directly with S and S about this, can't remember 
the
    gentleman's name.  He suggested I try using the Insert F5 function which

I
    did, not successfully.  In any case, it really should work as it does in
    7.0.

    I'll keep trying and report back.

    Regards


    -----Original Message-----
    From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Tristram Llewellyn
    Sent: 26 June 2006 15:22
    To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Something very anoying in the new update


    Unfortunately I'm not a customer of theres so I cannot test this myself.
  I
    take it that if you go back to 7.0 things work out OK, and this is not a
    coincidence that perhaps the bank have change their site as well?
    Regards.

    Tristram Llewellyn
    Sight and Sound Technology
    Technical Support
    www.sightandsound.co.uk

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: David
      To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 1:15 PM
      Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Something very anoying in the new update


      The bank is the National Westminster and the website I use is
      www.nwolb.co.uk

      I tested it again five minutes ago and there is quite definitely a
    problem.
      I have used this site regularly for about a year and had no problems
  until
      Jaws 7.10.

      I also noticed today that having entered my personal number on the 
first
      page and pressed "next" it then asked me for my personal number again
  but,
      in fact, it should have been part of my pin number.  Anyway, I did a
  read
      line and it asked me to enter the first character of my pin number 
which
  I
      did.  It should then have taken me to the next field to enter another
  pin
      number but instead it asked me for the second character of my 
password.
  I
      knew this was not right but entered it as requested and it immediately
    shot
      me to the top of the page.

      I don't like to mess around with this sort of site for long in case 
you
    end
      up having to re-register.  I hope you understand all that.

      Regards

      -----Original Message-----
      From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Tristram Llewellyn
      Sent: 26 June 2006 10:47
      To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Something very anoying in the new update


      Obviously not interested in your bank details but which bank is that 
you
    are
      having this problem with, perhaps someone else has the same bank and
  could
      compare notes with a view to finding what the problem is and then
  possible
      resolution.
      Regards.

      Tristram Llewellyn
      Sight and Sound Technology
      Technical Support
      www.sightandsound.co.uk

        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: David
        To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 7:23 AM
        Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Something very anoying in the new update


        Hi,
        I have also had trouble with form fields with 7.10.  Not quite the
  same
    as
        you I think.  What I am finding on a particular banking website is
      entering
        password digits in their individual fields.  Normally you
  automatically
        start in field 1, then field 2 etc. but with 7.10 it seems to land 
on
    any
        random field and it doesn't reliably tell you wich.  When I use this
      website
        now I go back to 7.0.

        I have also noticed that some of the settings don't seem to have 
taken
        effect with the Merge Utilities function.  I might try running it
  again.

        I had trouble with Google some time ago when it kept on interrupting
        everytime I went to a new field in a form.  I found the problem in
        Add/Remove Software.  Forgotten what it was called but had "google" 
in
    it.
        Taking it out sorted it.

        Things are not looking good I think with Jaws 7.1 at the moment but 
it
    is
        still a Beta version so can't moan I suppose.

        Regards

        David
        -----Original Message-----
        From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
        Behalf Of Andrew Hodgson
        Sent: 25 June 2006 23:01
        To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: [jaws-uk] Something very anoying in the new update


        Hi,

        I am finding this new update a bit difficult to get used to.  The 
main
        reason is that on a web form, if you are arrowing through the form,
  Jaws
        before 7.10 read out the relevant field, then the edit box etc for 
you
        to put the data into.  However, what I am now finding is that Jaws 
is
        reading some sort of attribute on the form entry fields, in addition
  to
        the data which is visible in the browser window, in effect reading 
the
        data out twice for each arrow up/down.  It is not therefore easy to
        distinguish when you come to the edit field in a form, you have to 
use
        different navigation commands to get you to the next edit field etc.

        One clear example on this is at http://www.google.com, where I 
usually
        quickly arrow down until I hear the words "edit", however, now I 
hear
        the words "google search" read out twice, once for the text shown
  above
        the form field, and once again on the form field itself.

        Is there any way to turn this feature off, so that I can hear the
        description of the field by pressing a key or something?

        Also, I realise that Brian has done a script for this, but I find
        Outlook a bit annoying when you continually hear the same message 
read
        out if you come to the bottom of the list.  If you are viewing a
  folder
        with the new messages coming at the bottom, you don't know when you
        reach the bottom of the list easily, because you continually hear 
the
        last message in the list, which makes it seem like that person wrote
        loads of messages.

        Thanks.
        Andrew.


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