Hi folks, No fix for this in beta so far. Don't buy a ticket on it. Tom -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of the gamages Sent: 07 September 2011 11:03 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: An old chestnut Hello Barry, You are right of course, but it's a very small specialist market that we are talking about, have you tried the latest NVDA? these people are coming along in leaps and bounds, already the program is quite adequate for all everyday aspects of computing. I have Jaws 12 and have no intention of getting any more updates at the moment, now, if everyone made up their mind to take that view of the situation, Freedom Scientific may just take notice, but it's not going to happen is it? Jaws is aimed at people in work and it's needed in that environment, after all, I think the initials stand for "Job access with speech", So employers pay for the program in many cases, do they do that because they are in ignorance of other screen readers? or is it that the others don't give enough access for business activities? As I understand it, Government departments along with many businesses use Jaws for their visually impaired employees, so it's these big players who should be making all the noise, however, it's good to have a moan and get things off our chest, take care now and watch the blood pressure, [smile]. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Barry Toner Sent: 07 September 2011 10:37 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: An old chestnut Hi Jim, The thing is though. Providing the customers keep coming back, what insentive does this offer the company to improve? Business is all about profits, regardless of any moral high grounds any of them try to take. Regards, Barry. -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of the gamages Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 10:35 AM To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: An old chestnut Hello folks, may I introduce a slightly different aspect of this debate? I have two computers, one is using XP and the other is Windows seven, I have a lot of old programs on the XP computer and Jaws 8 works quite well with them, so I use Jaws 8 with these, [the only thing which doesn't is Internet Explorer 8, so I use Jaws 12 with that]. My Windows seven computer has office 2010 and some fairly newish stuff, so I use Jaws 12 on that along with NVDA. The point I am trying to make is that Jaws 12 may not be very friendly with some older programs or operating systems, so I use Jaws 8 with these, if you had an old 1960s Volkswagon beetle, you could hardly expect an alternator for a modern Volkswagon Polo to work with it could you. Perhaps that's not a very good analogy, but I'm sure you get the idea. I'm not making excuses for Freedom Scientific, because some things still need sorting out in Jaws 12 for newer programs, these are faults and they should be addressed without having to shell out for expensive updates. However, sometimes it's better to use an older version of Jaws if it works better with older stuff. I know that was not the case with the original point in this debate, that should be sorted out now and not be left until a huge charge can be made for an update, if we buy something in a shop and it's faulty, we take it back and get the problem resolved, in the U K this is covered by the Sale of goods act, I don't know what that equates to in the States, if it's not fit for purpose, then we have some redress. It is still the case that Jaws is still the most usable program, until that changes, we are stuck with it, but I think any business should think carefully before ignoring the complaints of their customers. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Darren H Sent: 07 September 2011 09:56 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: An old chestnut Sorry, that's a bit of a cop out. Just because we're blind, shouldn't we expect the kind of service from our access providers that we do eveyrone else? If Jaws was a mainstream program with a good deal of other providers available, it would never stand up to scrutiny. It only survives because it's the best of a fairly poor bunch. Cheers Darren -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Stone - CW Sent: 07 September 2011 09:55 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: An old chestnut Darren, it is unfortunate, however, even if there was any useful competition we'd only end up with a cartel rather than the current monopoly. Cheers Alex -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Darren H Sent: 06 September 2011 17:25 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: An old chestnut Hi. It is just unfortunate that jaws hasn't got any competition to speak of. For all it's faults, it still seems to do a better job than any other screen reader I've tried. Which obviously means, they can do what they jolly well please and we'll just have to go along with it. Yes, of course businesses are there to make a profit. But the idea of business is to make a profit with a product that works correctly and as intended, not half do a job but know that people will purchase anyway because they have to. I'm in the fortunate position of being able to comfortably afford the upgrades, but for those that aren't, it's a real pain in the gonads. Cheers Darren -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Amie Slavin Sent: 06 September 2011 17:15 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: An old chestnut But I don't think I do need to put myself in their position. I'm a customer, a consumer. It is for them to put themselves, as a profit-making business, in my position. Even as a self-employed sole trader I wouldn't dream of using my need for income as an excuse for monopolising a captive market with a substandard product. Neither would any of the business people of my acquaintance. It is for businesses to serve customers; not the other way around. Bang :o) (for Tom) A -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Graham Page Sent: 06 September 2011 16:12 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: An old chestnut Amie yes I'm afraid you are rather going off on one. You need to put yourself in the position of the manufacturer of the screenreader who relies on the screenreader sales for income. Yes there are problems with the over all model. Yes I have problems with some aspects of the way freedom scientific in particular chooses to do business i.e. aggressive use of law suits. It is interesting to note that while apple has developed its own screenreader, there is also some suggestion at least that the next version of windows 8 will have a more useful screenreader built in. I do hope that there will come a time when expensive screenreaders that cost more than the hardware they run on will not be required as they will be part of the operating system but if programmers and technical support people have to live off the revenue of sales from a screenreader it is likely to be expensive. Regards Graham -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Amie Slavin Sent: 06 September 2011 14:24 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: An old chestnut For sure, just as I'm looking at JAWS 12. What a confounded rip-off the whole racket is. Well done us for not swearing (lol) when, yet again, confronted with this very old chestnut, centring on blind people being an easy target for those intent on making money out of tech sighted people would laugh out of the water. Anyway, here I go, off on one: chunter chunter chunter. Thanks Tom, for pointing this out. Important info. A -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of tom.reid21@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 06 September 2011 14:17 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] An old chestnut Hi folks, I've gone on for some time about access 2003--7 not being read properly under xp. the tab is silent. Through sightandsound, we have a reply from F s saying that it is a known issue under xp and vista. here's the punch line, though, it is scheduled to be fixed under jaws 13. I've got an sma for this so may be okay if it is fixed, but, what about those who haven't. Surely, this is not good enough. anybody affected should raise this. tom ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3879 - Release Date: 09/05/11 ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3879 - Release Date: 09/05/11 ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ---------- Action for Blind People is an expert national organisation, ensuring blind and partially sighted people get practical support in all aspects of their lives. 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Don't print this email unless it's really necessary. ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6442 (20110906) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6442 (20110906) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq