# [isapros] Re: ISA, Exchange 2007 and Perimeter Networks

*From*: "Gerald G. Young" <g.young@xxxxxxxx>*To*: <isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>*Date*: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:09:16 -0500

I always saw it as "initiation by fire". J Cordially yours, Jerry G. Young II Product Engineer - Senior Platform Engineering, Enterprise Hosting NTT America, an NTT Communications Company 22451 Shaw Rd. Sterling, VA 20166 Office: 571-434-1319 Fax: 703-333-6749 Email: g.young@xxxxxxxx From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God) Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:46 AM To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA, Exchange 2007 and Perimeter Networks "Overly poky." Kind of hard for me to argue with that one :-p t On 1/11/07 7:09 AM, "Amy Babinchak" <amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to all: Jason don't get discouraged. The changes in Exchange are monumental so there are bound to be disagreements and changes of opinion on how to best secure it. The concept of an authenticated access DMZ in a separate security zone allowing only a very minimal set of protocols is a completely foreign concept to 99% of firewall admins out there. That fact you are even thinking about this stuff put you in an elite class. The rest are still poking holes and setting up VLANs. Tom, Thor and Jim can be a bit clubby and a little overly poky to new comers. It's a twitch they developed after participating on the ISA server mailing list. It got worse when they decided to join a general purpose SBS list. I'm not sure that they'll ever completely recover. Amy ________________________________ From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 5:47 AM To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA, Exchange 2007 and Perimeter Networks Wish I had never asked now...sometimes, some of you guys really don't make it easy for new people to try express their views and pose questions for comment without being slapped down. One minute I am being labelled as an "idiot" for my comments/views, the next minute someone else who says the same thing as me is now right and not challenged. What gives? I know many of you guys don't know me from Adam, but kinda unfair to just assume I know jack about ISA and secure network design just because I'm not "part of the club". Anyhow, thanks to Tim and Tom for seeming to share my disappointment with the decision made by the Exchange 2007 team...I think I need to try and find out how "official" their lack of support with 2k7 is going to be before I can continue recommending the least privilege model I have been using for Exchange 2003. ________________________________ From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison Sent: 11 January 2007 04:30 To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA, Exchange 2007 and Perimeter Networks ..maybe I'm just tired... I spent two hours trying to get home tonight and I'm clearly not in my mind (right or otherwise). Forget I wrote and we'll start over tomorrow... From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God) Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 8:18 PM To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA, Exchange 2007 and Perimeter Networks That's exactly what I'm talking about. And precisely the configuration I deploy: My FE is in the authenticated segment of the DMZ - and a member of my internal domain; however, the "recommended protocols" the Exchange group recommends are not necessary- and thus, Steve's contention that "CIFS and all that other stuff... Might as well just be internal" I reject. I only allow Kerberos-Sec, LDAP, LDAP GC, Ping and DNS only from my FE to the internal DC's. And only HTTP to the BE's. Even if the other prots WERE required, it would still be far smarter to deploy the FE in the authenticated DMZ with limited access than to just give full stack access to the ENTIRE internal network. This is a deployment of a services made available (initially) to a global, anonymous, untrusted network. Maybe I'm not properly articulating my point, but I have to say I'm really surprised that we are having this conversation... t On 1/10/07 7:10 PM, "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to all: C'mon, Tim; I know what your deployment recommendations are; this isn't it. He wants to extend his domain via "remote membership"; not create a separate domain. From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] <mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx%5d> <mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx%5d> On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God) Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:26 PM To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA, Exchange 2007 and Perimeter Networks Because it's safer that way, that's why... That's what an authenticated access DMZ perimeter is for- with a CAS server that presents logon services to any Internet user, I would (and, in fact, require) that the server be in a least-privileged authenticated access perimeter network that limits that servers communications to the minimum required for required functionality - and only to the hosts it needs to talk to. Let's say there is a front-end implementation issue or coding vulnerability: the CAS on the internal network would allow unfettered, full-stack access to the internal network. A CAS in a perimeter DMZ would mitigate potential exposure in the event of a 0day or configuration issue. "Safer on the internal network" is a complete misnomer when it comes to servers presenting services to an untrusted network. t On 1/10/07 3:04 PM, "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to all: Why would you want to place a member of your internal domain in your DMZ, fer chrissakes?!? Hosting any domain member in the DMZ is a difficult proposition; especially where NAT is the order of the day. You can either use a network shotgun at your firewall or attempt to use your facvorite VPN tunnel across the firewall to the domain. Jim ________________________________ From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Jason Jones Sent: Wed 1/10/2007 2:35 PM To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA, Exchange 2007 and Perimeter Networks From what I can gather, the new CAS role now uses RPC to communicate with the back-end (not sure of new name!) servers so I am guessing that this is an "RPC isn't safe across firewalls" type stance. Which I guess for a PIX, is a pretty true statement. Just think how much safer the world will be when firewalls can understand dynamic protocols like RPC...maybe one day firewalls will even be able to understand and filter based upon RPC interface...maybe one day... :-D ;-) Shame the Exchange team can't see how much ISA changes the traditional approach to DMZ thinking...kinda makes you think that both teams work for a different company :-( Jason Jones | Silversands Limited | Desk: +44 (0)1202 360489 | Mobile: +44 (0)7971 500312 | Fax: +44 (0)1202 360900 | Email: jason.jones@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jason.jones@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:jason.jones@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ________________________________ From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] <mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx%5d> <mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx%5d> On Behalf Of Greg Mulholland Sent: 10 January 2007 22:07 To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA, Exchange 2007 and Perimeter Networks I seriously hope that they have take different paths and these are not limitations on the software or it is going to mean a nice little redesign and break from custom.. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Jason Jones <mailto:Jason.Jones@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:Jason.Jones@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:25 AM Subject: [isapros] ISA, Exchange 2007 and Perimeter Networks Hi All, I heard today from an Exchange MVP colleague that members of the Exchange team (Scott Schnoll) are saying that they (Microsoft) do not support placing the new Exchange 2007 Client Access Server (like the old Exch2k3 FE role) role into a perimeter network. Has anyone else heard the same? This sounds very similar to Exchange admins of old when they didn't really understand modern application firewalls like ISA could do - RPC filter anyone??? http://groups.google.co.uk/group/microsoft.public.exchange.design/browse _thread/thread/4ecab9cb8e50015e/4db165c21599cf9b?lnk=st&q=cas+dmz+isa&rn um=2&hl=en#4db165c21599cf9b <http://groups.google.co.uk/group/microsoft.public.exchange.design/brows e_thread/thread/4ecab9cb8e50015e/4db165c21599cf9b?lnk=st&q=cas+dmz+i sa&rnum=2&hl=en#4db165c21599cf9b> <http://groups.google.co.uk/group/microsoft.public.exchange.design/brows e_thread/thread/4ecab9cb8e50015e/4db165c21599cf9b?lnk=st&q=cas+dmz+isa&r num=2&hl=en#4db165c21599cf9b> <http://groups.google.co.uk/group/microsoft.public.exchange.design/brows e_thread/thread/4ecab9cb8e50015e/4db165c21599cf9b?lnk=st&q=cas+dmz+i sa&rnum=2&hl=en#4db165c21599cf9b> <http://groups.google.co.uk/group/microsoft.public.exchange.design/brows e_thread/thread/4ecab9cb8e50015e/4db165c21599cf9b?lnk=st&q=cas+dmz+isa&r num=2&hl=en#4db165c21599cf9b> <http://groups.google.co.uk/group/microsoft.public.exchange.design/brows e_thread/thread/4ecab9cb8e50015e/4db165c21599cf9b?lnk=st&q=cas+dmz+i sa&rnum=2&hl=en#4db165c21599cf9b> <http://groups.google.co.uk/group/microsoft.public.exchange.design/brows e_thread/thread/4ecab9cb8e50015e/4db165c21599cf9b?lnk=st&q=cas+dmz+isa&r num=2&hl=en#4db165c21599cf9b> I have just about managed to convince Exchange colleagues (and customers) of the value of placing Exchange FE servers in a separate security zone from BE servers, DC's etc and now I here this... Are the Exchange team confusing the old traditional DMZ's with what ISA can achieve with perimeter networks? From what I believe, it is good perimeter security practice to place servers which are Internet accessible into different security zones than servers that are purely internal. Therefore, the idea of placing Exchange 2003 FE servers in an ISA auth access perimeter network with Exchange 2003 BE servers on the internal network has always seemed like a good approach. It also follows a good least privilege model. Is this another example of the Exchange and ISA teams following different paths???? Please tell me that I am wrong and that I am not going to have to start putting all Exchange roles, irrespective of security risk, on the same network again!!!! Comments? Cheers JJ All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned. All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned. All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned.

**References**:**[isapros] Re: ISA, Exchange 2007 and Perimeter Networks***From:*Thor (Hammer of God)

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