RE: Server publishing

  • From: "josephk" <josephk@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "[ISAserver.org Discussion List]" <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:37:42 -0700

Hi T or HIT with out a space,

I've ran pretty much every hacker tool that I can find against that
configuration and so far
Have not found a hole. Not to say that there isn't a hole, I've just not
found it.
WTF is a good one. The more I know the less I know. 
When setting it up that way then the statements for using trusted
connections are similar to this
Based on what you connect to:
1.
server=YOURSERVER;Trusted_Connection=true;database=YOURDB
2.
Persist Security Info=False;Data Source=YOURSERVER;Integrated
Security=SSPI;Initial Catalog=YOURDB;

Without this type of setup, what you get are a bunch of anonymous
connection attempts to your backend
SQL machine. At least this way, when you create a local user account on
the WEB machine and the 
Same local user account on the SQL machine you can have a better setup
then not performing it this 
Way. I manually change the PW'S often and monitor the setting son the
box. SNORT comes if handy.

There are right ways and wrong ways. I'm sure that there are lots of
each as shakesphere has said
"There is nothing good or bad only thinking makes it so".  I'm still a
student of all things
And constantly try to learn new things. 
MS PRESS has a good book "Building Secure ASP.NET Applications" That
deal with patterns and practices.

I learn a lot from this forum of ideas.  Thanks for keeping my answers
in check.

Joseph


-----Original Message-----
From: Thor [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:11 PM
To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
Subject: [isalist] RE: Server publishing


http://www.ISAserver.org

Oh, I did read what you said, dude. It just didn't make any sense given
the configuration...  There is no publication of SQL from the external
IP in that config, so hiding the SQL box (the one on the internal
network) would
do nothing.  But of course, "hiding" it does nothing anyway...   Maybe
I'm
missing something, though... It's been a long day.

I don't question if that configuration is used at many sites... In fact,
I'm aware that configurations like that, where you have a shared
username and password on a machine in the DMZ that is duplicated (and
can then be used) in the internal network, are used all over the place.
That doesn't make it secure.  Quite the opposite, actually.

You guys can set it up however you want, but the purpose of a DMZ is to
delay attackers long enough to be detected and stopped.  Giving an
attacker a username and password that can be used on an internal
machine, then giving them a protocol stream that would go basically
un-monitored ('cause it would look like normal traffic) along with a
path into the internal network is simply insecure.  You can call it
paranoid if you like, but that configuration directly weakens the
foundation of the structure put in place to stop that kind of thing in
the first place.  I mean, you take a back-to-back PIX scheme with an ISA
back-end, and then provide a clear path to the internal network.
Paranoid?  Not in my opinion.  But hey, WTF do I know? :-p

And I'm sure that I'll be having dinner (or at least drinks) with my
good buddy Joel Scambray who owns MSN security at Blackhat Vegas.  If he
uses that configuration, I promise that I'll kick him in the ding ding
(with Jim as a witness.) :))))

t










----- Original Message ----- 
From: "josephk" <josephk@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "[ISAserver.org Discussion List]" <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:01 PM
Subject: [isalist] RE: Server publishing


http://www.ISAserver.org

Read what I said dude.  I said that other SQL machines won't be able to
connect to it. I did not mention that it Would fix security issues. The
configuration that I sent Nathan has been tested and used here and at
many sites. MSN.COM uses something similar. If someone gets that far
into your network then you have serious problems.

If real time is not an issue then maybe setting up MSMQ to do transfers
would work.  There is some programming Involved but would still work.
Or you could create secure web services to do data reading and updating.

It really depends on how paranoid you are.

Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Thor [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 5:48 PM
To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
Subject: [isalist] RE: Server publishing


http://www.ISAserver.org

A few bits queried to udp1434, and your SQL Server will spill its guts
as to where multiple instances are listening.  "Hiding" is no security
option.

Besides, in the model described, it doesn't matter.  You could have the
DMZ web server talking to the internal box on 341433 for that matter,
and any compromise of the web box would reveal that-- regardless of if
you block the multiple instance query or not...  The config on the web
server tells all... You'd still have to have that TCP port statically
open to the internal network, where MSSQL would be listening.  That
won't stop SQL injection, won't stop anything, really-- other than a
worm that was loosed in the DMZ itself.

The bottom line is that the ISA server, given the listed config, doesn't
buy you anything (from a server pub standpoint) other than what Shawn
brought up regarding limiting requests.

Nathan-- even if you need updates from data posted to the DMZ server to
the Internal server, that doesn't mean you can't still use one-way
traffic to accomplish this.  Just run jobs from the inside that grab the
data from the outside.  I do it all day every day with no issues.  You
can even do a "run while idle" job if you want to that would basically
constantly run the job. Of course, "run when idle" jobs require the
MSSQL service to run as local admin (or SYSTEM) so that is kinda risky.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "josephk" <josephk@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "[ISAserver.org Discussion List]" <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 4:05 PM
Subject: [isalist] RE: Server publishing


http://www.ISAserver.org

With SQL you can hide the box on your network.  Meaning that other SQL
machines won't be able to see it. When you use this method it changes
the port that SQL uses to 2433. Then the common types of worms Don't
know if there is anything on 1433 or not.

Thank you,

Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Thor [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 1:49 PM
To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
Subject: [isalist] RE: Server publishing


http://www.ISAserver.org

Well, it will add an "additional layer of complexity," but only in
regard to your network topology.  To be pedantic, Server Publishing 1433
won't "proxy" anything... I will just pass the traffic along
transparently (unless the back-end is a different subnet, in which case
it will be NAT'd, but still, no difference.)

t


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nathan Casey" <NCASEY@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "[ISAserver.org Discussion List]" <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 1:17 PM
Subject: [isalist] RE: Server publishing


> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
> We want the ISA server to add an additional layer of complexity for 
> external access to internal resources. The ISA server would be set as 
> a reverse proxy to pass requests, authentication, etc to the SQL 
> server
>
> >>> Shawn.Quillman@xxxxxxxxxxxx 7/1/2004 12:11:18 PM >>>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
>
> Yes.  The only time you can have 1 adapter is when ISA is
> in cache-only
> mode in which situation you can only web publish.  The
> config you show
> doesn't really make sense, the ISA would be redundant.  You would just

> publish the SQL server via the internal PIX.  What is it you're trying

> to accomplish with the ISA?
>
> -Shawn
>
>
> -----
> Shawn R. Quillman
> Robert Bosch Corporation RBNA/CSA1
> 38000 Hills Tech Drive
> Farmington Hills, MI 48331
> (248) 553-1164 (P) (248) 848-6969 (F) shawn.quillman@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nathan [mailto:ncasey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 3:40 PM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] Server publishing
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
> With server publishing, if I publish a SQL server that sits on the 
> internal network, does my ISA server need 2 adapters? The SQL server 
> is acting as a back-end database server for a Web site which is hosted

> on web server in a PIX DMZ.
> If I do need 2 adapters for server publishing can they both
> reside in
> PIX DMZ's? My network security guy wants all incoming
> traffic to go
> trough the PIX firewall
>
> Internet Router
>    (Public IP)
> |
> |
> PIX FIREWALL
> |
> |
>   Web server
> |
> |
> PIX FIREWALL
> *internal Network*
> |
> |
> ISA SERVER
> |
> |
> SQL SERVER
>
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