http://www.ISAserver.org ------------------------------------------------------- ..you have no idea... :-( -----Original Message----- From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God) Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:12 PM To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders http://www.ISAserver.org ------------------------------------------------------- Don't worry about him... Jim's just roughing you up a bit... He's had a hard day. t On 10/19/06 3:43 PM, "Amy Babinchak" <amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to all: > http://www.ISAserver.org > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Fortunately my client list contains 0 P2P networks so it was > rhetorical question anyway. I have never seen an P2P network with an > internal DNS server so I'm wondering if this is common practice these > days among that that do P2P? > > Amy > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > On Behalf Of Jim Harrison > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:32 PM > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders > > http://www.ISAserver.org > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Users don't care because they just "want you to make it work". > How you go about that within the framework of the current contract is > your business. > > If you're happy building P2P networks that depend on NB broadcast for > internal connectivity, that's up to you since you have to support > them, but I strongly encourage you to rethink this position. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:33 PM > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders > > http://www.ISAserver.org > ------------------------------------------------------- > > I do often fear them because I only have so much time in my life to > learn new stuff. At least what I learn about one Microsoft app is > somewhat transferable to others. > > So what's the advantage of running DNS on an XP workstation on a > peer-peer network? I don't think the users are going to care and it'll > just be one more machine they have to keep running to keep the network > going. Just like the "print server" workstation. > > > Amy > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > On Behalf Of Jim Harrison > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:23 PM > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders > > http://www.ISAserver.org > ------------------------------------------------------- > > If there is a network, then there is at least one machine. > If they have one single machine, they can have a DNS server. > XP can run DNS services unless you're afraid of a non-MS solution. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:15 PM > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders > > http://www.ISAserver.org > ------------------------------------------------------- > > From his description I was assuming no server. He mentioned very small > businesses. > > Amy > > -----Original Message----- > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > On Behalf Of Jim Harrison > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 4:49 PM > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders > > http://www.ISAserver.org > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Sez hoo? > If you have a single machine, you have the possibility of operating > your own DNS service. > > -----Original Message----- > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:47 PM > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders > > http://www.ISAserver.org > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Joseph, > > Are you saying that you need DNS functionality on a network without a > firewall? In that case you have no choice but the use the DNS server > provided by the ISP. You also have larger security concerns than DNS. > > If what you are saying is you have a non-ISA non-SBS environment with > a firewall appliance you can usually use this appliance as the DNS > server for your workstations provided you buy one in the $200+ range. > If you go with the $50 model, when then you're in the same spot as paragraph 1. > > Amy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > On Behalf Of ISA > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:54 AM > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders > > http://www.ISAserver.org > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Thor - a most excellent passage of DNS and network security. > > Unfortunately, I usually run into the typical client (as was this > case) that only has one server, one gateway (pikes, conicwell etc) and > a few clients. > > ISA, DMZ and hosting of anything themselves is out of the question > (except that which is offered by SBS 2003). > > > The fundamental question is how to best configure the network to allow > the clients and server to resolve internet names (where ISA/DMZ are > not present). I would assume that your clients are pointing to the > DC/DNS server!?! From there, there are a few options: Configure DNS > server to forward / not forward, configure it's NIC with for the ISP > DNS server IP etc. > > Actually I suppose this question/scenario might not be best addressed > from this list; since this list is dedicated to ISA which is an > enterprise product not represented well in the SMALL small business > market. > > Thanks again for the DNS brief - that'll be another one that I'll > archive for my records. > > Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP > > Network Blade Inc. > > 49 Marcy Street > > Somerset, NJ 08873 > > 732-213-0600 > > www.networkblade.com > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God) > Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:50 PM Posted To: ISA > Conversation: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders > Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders > > http://www.ISAserver.org > ------------------------------------------------------- > > I've found that many people seem to dance over the security > ramifications of DNS/forwarders when designing an infrastructure. I > had some off-list conversations about this, and thought that it may be > valuable to fully flesh-out what I think the issues are and how to > avoid them. Now's also probably a good time to share my "trick" > regarding publicly available DNS and minimizing service exposure. So, > for the benefit of those who are > interested: > > When AD DNS is configured as a forwarder, all domain members using > that DNS server will be able to resolve hostnames directly from their > IP stack. > There is no operational reason to have this-- when one considers that > most spyware/malware/trojans/backdoors/shells/etc typically depend on > hostname lookups for direct access to a resource, the capability of a > client box to perform direct host lookups outside your network should > (to me) be considered unwanted and un-needed. Personally, I qualify > it as "dangerous." > > That's why I always configure my AD DNS with a root (.) zone- that > way, only local zones may be queried by the client's stack. I > typically only use web proxy clients for HTTP(S)/FTP where all DNS is > proxied by the ISA box. > If > one needs direct DNS for another application (say DOS FTP) then use > the FWC and all DNS will be resolved over the control channel, still > being proxied by the ISA server. > > The ISA server itself will have whatever "public" DNS server > configured in its stack so that it can do the resolution for the clients. > > Not only is direct client DNS "dangerous," but having an AD box set up > as a forwarder is "dangerous" as well as the box must be configured to > access a remote resource over TCP/UDP 53. This also means that you've > opened that box up for incoming traffic on TCP/UDP 53 as well. Having > static paths into your internal network from source port routing is > crazy. I can push anything I want over 53, not just DNS (and have ;). > Remember, the DNS filter is only for published DNS servers, not > clients requesting DNS lookups. > > But there is the issue of one wanting complete control over host names > and the need to publish your own DNS. This is what the DMZ is for. > The DMZ box is set as a forwarding server, and the internal ISA box is > set to use that box for all DNS requests. In this way, only the ISA > box itself need to request DNS outside the internal network, and it is > already protected. > In > this manner, there is no DNS leaving the internal network at all, and > no static ports into the internal network-- only the ISA box looking > up DNS, and only to that DMZ resource. The DNS server in the DMZ is > protected by the border ISA box, which (where necessary) is publishing > DNS to the DMZ for remote hosts to look up your domain information. > And here the DNS filter is used. > > But you can get even better than that-- you can actually be fully in > control of your own zone data without having to actually publish your > DNS to the world if you have a decent ISP. > > Here's what I do for that-- I have DMZ DNS servers set up as primary > DNS zones, and have told my ISP to set up their servers as secondary > zones for my domains. The DMZ box can only zone transfer to the IP's > of my ISP's DNS servers. Additionally the DMZ box is set to forward > to my ISP's cache servers. So, at this point, all internal AD DNS is > stopped at the controller, and only the ISA box can resolve DNS and > only to the DMZ DNS server. My internal Exchange clusters' stack > resolves to the AD controller, and they smart host deliver mail to my > DMZ GFI gateway, so still no DNS leaving. The GFI box in the DMZ uses the DMZ DNS. > > The trick is that though I'm primary DNS, and though any changes I > make to my DNS hosts are immediately replicated to my ISP as secondary > DNS, I've registered my DNS with the domain registry as my *ISP* being > primary. > So > the world resolves my host names via my *ISP's* DNS servers, not *mine*. > I > don't even have to publish DNS at all. > > The end result is that no DNS requests leave my internal network at > all, except for a single DNS box in the DMZ that can only resolve to > the ISP DNS caches. There is no publishing at all, no internal paths, > no vulns, nothing at all since the world resolves to the ISP boxes yet > I have full control over all host name entries. > > It's a pretty tight config. > > t > > > > On 10/18/06 11:01 AM, "Thomas W Shinder" <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx> > spoketh to > all: > >> http://www.ISAserver.org >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> >> The T-Man is definitely right about this. >> >> Thomas W Shinder, M.D. >> Site: www.isaserver.org >> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/ >> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7 >> MVP -- Microsoft Firewalls (ISA) >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of >>> God) >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:52 PM >>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders >>> >>> http://www.ISAserver.org >>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Why do your internal clients need to resolve DNS directly? I never >>> ever use forwarders on my AD boxes. I always create root zones on >>> my > >>> AD DNS servers and only use ISA to resolve DNS for web proxy/fw >>> clients. >>> >>> That's where what I consider "true" security and separation comes >>> from. >>> >>> t >>> >>> >>> On 10/18/06 9:13 AM, "ISA" <ISA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to all: >>> >>>> http://www.ISAserver.org >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> This actually has happened with and without forwarders - >>>> >>>> Steve, I interpret your suggestion as using only the Root Hints? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP >>>> >>>> Network Blade Inc. >>>> >>>> 49 Marcy Street >>>> >>>> Somerset, NJ 08873 >>>> >>>> 732-213-0600 >>>> >>>> www.networkblade.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>> On Behalf Of Steve Moffat >>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:08 PM Posted To: ISA >>>> Conversation: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders >>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders >>>> >>>> http://www.ISAserver.org >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> FWIW.....I have 2 caching only DNS Servers that I setup to use as >>>> forwarders for my AD DNS Servers, when I use them, I get >>> the very same >>>> issue. If I however, remove them from the forwarders >>> section, I have no >>>> DNS Issues at all whatsoever, anytime. >>>> >>>> S >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>> On Behalf Of ISA >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 1:03 PM >>>> To: ISA Mailing List >>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders >>>> >>>> http://www.ISAserver.org >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Thanks Mike: >>>> >>>> I will try clearing the cache - but this happens now about everyday >>>> (morning usually). I really have to find the source of the problem. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP >>>> >>>> Network Blade Inc. >>>> >>>> 49 Marcy Street >>>> >>>> Somerset, NJ 08873 >>>> >>>> 732-213-0600 >>>> >>>> www.networkblade.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>> On Behalf Of Michael Ross >>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:01 PM Posted To: ISA >>>> Conversation: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders >>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders >>>> >>>> http://www.ISAserver.org >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Windows 2003 DNS servers? >>>> Believe it or not, ive seen that . It's a cache pollution type of >>>> behavior, with no logging or other signs to prove that. >>>> Try to clear the DNS cache next time and see if it helps. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>> On Behalf Of ISA >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:59 AM >>>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders >>>> >>>> http://www.ISAserver.org >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Steve: Funny you should say that because I've done that a few times. >>>> >>>> DNS stops - I removed the forwards - Restart DNS - DNS works. >>>> DNS stops - I change the forwards - Restart DNS - DNS works. >>>> >>>> I want to blame my server but I'm just not sure where the >>> failure is. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP >>>> >>>> Network Blade Inc. >>>> >>>> 49 Marcy Street >>>> >>>> Somerset, NJ 08873 >>>> >>>> 732-213-0600 >>>> >>>> www.networkblade.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>> On Behalf Of Steve Moffat >>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:55 AM Posted To: ISA >>>> Conversation: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders >>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders >>>> >>>> http://www.ISAserver.org >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Remove the forwarders.....then see how fast your Internet speed >>>> gets...:) >>>> >>>> S >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>> On Behalf Of ISA >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:49 PM >>>> To: ISA Mailing List >>>> Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders >>>> >>>> http://www.ISAserver.org >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Hello All - >>>> >>>> This might be off-topic, but has anyone every had their >>> Windows DNS/DC >>>> server intermittently stop forwarding DNS requests? >>>> >>>> I checked with the ISP and they don't recognize and >>> problems on their >>>> end. >>>> >>>> JD >>>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>>> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/isalist/ >>>> ISA Server Newsletter: >>>> http://www.isaserver.org/pages/newsletter.asp >>>> ISA Server Articles and Tutorials: >>>> http://www.isaserver.org/articles_tutorials/ >>>> ISA Server Blogs: http://blogs.isaserver.org/ >>>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Visit TechGenix.com for more information about our other sites: >>>> http://www.techgenix.com >>>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>>> To unsubscribe visit http://www.isaserver.org/pages/isalist.asp >>>> Report abuse to listadmin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>>> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/isalist/ >>>> ISA 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