[isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders

  • From: "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:24:21 -0700

http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
  
..you have no idea...
:-(

-----Original Message-----
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God)
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:12 PM
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders

http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
  
Don't worry about him... Jim's just roughing you up a bit...  He's had a
hard day.

t


On 10/19/06 3:43 PM, "Amy Babinchak" <amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
spoketh to all:

> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Fortunately my client list contains 0 P2P networks so it was 
> rhetorical question anyway. I have never seen an P2P network with an 
> internal DNS server so I'm wondering if this is common practice these 
> days among that that do P2P?
> 
> Amy
>  
>    
>  
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:32 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
> 
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>   
> Users don't care because they just "want you to make it work".
> How you go about that within the framework of the current contract is 
> your business.
> 
> If you're happy building P2P networks that depend on NB broadcast for 
> internal connectivity, that's up to you since you have to support 
> them, but I strongly encourage you to rethink this position.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:33 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
> 
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>   
> I do often fear them because I only have so much time in my life to 
> learn new stuff. At least what I learn about one Microsoft app is 
> somewhat transferable to others.
> 
> So what's the advantage of running DNS on an XP workstation on a 
> peer-peer network? I don't think the users are going to care and it'll

> just be one more machine they have to keep running to keep the network

> going. Just like the "print server" workstation.
> 
> 
> Amy
>  
>    
>  
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:23 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
> 
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>   
> If there is a network, then there is at least one machine.
> If they have one single machine, they can have a DNS server.
> XP can run DNS services unless you're afraid of a non-MS solution.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:15 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
> 
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>   
> From his description I was assuming no server. He mentioned very small

> businesses.
> 
> Amy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 4:49 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
> 
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>   
> Sez hoo?
> If you have a single machine, you have the possibility of operating 
> your own DNS service.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:47 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
> 
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>   
> Joseph,
> 
> Are you saying that you need DNS functionality on a network without a 
> firewall? In that case you have no choice but the use the DNS server 
> provided by the ISP. You also have larger security concerns than DNS.
> 
> If what you are saying is you have a non-ISA non-SBS environment with 
> a firewall appliance you can usually use this appliance as the DNS 
> server for your workstations provided you buy one in the $200+ range. 
> If you go with the $50 model, when then you're in the same spot as
paragraph 1.
> 
> Amy
>  
>    
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of ISA
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:54 AM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
> 
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>   
> Thor - a most excellent passage of DNS and network security.
> 
> Unfortunately, I usually run into the typical client (as was this 
> case) that only has one server, one gateway (pikes, conicwell etc) and

> a few clients.
> 
> ISA, DMZ and hosting of anything themselves is out of the question 
> (except that which is offered by SBS 2003).
> 
> 
> The fundamental question is how to best configure the network to allow

> the clients and server to resolve internet names (where ISA/DMZ are 
> not present). I would assume that your clients are pointing to the 
> DC/DNS server!?! From there, there are a few options: Configure DNS 
> server to forward / not forward, configure it's NIC with for the ISP 
> DNS server IP etc.
> 
> Actually I suppose this question/scenario might not be best addressed 
> from this list; since this list is dedicated to ISA which is an 
> enterprise product not represented well in the SMALL small business 
> market.
> 
> Thanks again for the DNS brief - that'll be another one that I'll 
> archive for my records.
> 
> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
> 
> Network Blade Inc.
> 
> 49 Marcy Street
> 
> Somerset, NJ 08873
> 
> 732-213-0600
> 
> www.networkblade.com
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God)
> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:50 PM Posted To: ISA
> Conversation: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
> 
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>   
> I've found that many people seem to dance over the security 
> ramifications of DNS/forwarders when designing an infrastructure.  I 
> had some off-list conversations about this, and thought that it may be

> valuable to fully flesh-out what I think the issues are and how to 
> avoid them.  Now's also probably a good time to share my "trick" 
> regarding publicly available DNS and minimizing service exposure.  So,

> for the benefit of those who are
> interested:
> 
> When AD DNS is configured as a forwarder, all domain members using 
> that DNS server will be able to resolve hostnames directly from their 
> IP stack.
> There is no operational reason to have this-- when one considers that 
> most spyware/malware/trojans/backdoors/shells/etc typically depend on 
> hostname lookups for direct access to a resource, the capability of a 
> client box to perform direct host lookups outside your network should 
> (to me) be considered unwanted and un-needed.  Personally, I qualify 
> it as "dangerous."
> 
> That's why I always configure my AD DNS with a root (.) zone- that 
> way, only local zones may be queried by the client's stack.  I 
> typically only use web proxy clients for HTTP(S)/FTP where all DNS is 
> proxied by the ISA box.
> If
> one needs direct DNS for another application (say DOS FTP) then use 
> the FWC and all DNS will be resolved over the control channel, still 
> being proxied by the ISA server.
> 
> The ISA server itself will have whatever "public" DNS server 
> configured in its stack so that it can do the resolution for the
clients.
> 
> Not only is direct client DNS "dangerous," but having an AD box set up

> as a forwarder is "dangerous" as well as the box must be configured to

> access a remote resource over TCP/UDP 53.  This also means that you've

> opened that box up for incoming traffic on TCP/UDP 53 as well.  Having

> static paths into your internal network from source port routing is 
> crazy.  I can push anything I want over 53, not just DNS (and have ;).
> Remember, the DNS filter is only for published DNS servers, not 
> clients requesting DNS lookups.
> 
> But there is the issue of one wanting complete control over host names

> and the need to publish your own DNS.  This is what the DMZ is for.  
> The DMZ box is set as a forwarding server, and the internal ISA box is

> set to use that box for all DNS requests.  In this way, only the ISA 
> box itself need to request DNS outside the internal network, and it is

> already protected.
> In
> this manner, there is no DNS leaving the internal network at all, and 
> no static ports into the internal network-- only the ISA box looking 
> up DNS, and only to that DMZ resource.  The DNS server in the DMZ is 
> protected by the border ISA box, which (where necessary) is publishing

> DNS to the DMZ for remote hosts to look up your domain information.  
> And here the DNS filter is used.
> 
> But you can get even better than that-- you can actually be fully in 
> control of your own zone data without having to actually publish your 
> DNS to the world if you have a decent ISP.
> 
> Here's what I do for that-- I have DMZ DNS servers set up as primary 
> DNS zones, and have told my ISP to set up their servers as secondary 
> zones for my domains.  The DMZ box can only zone transfer to the IP's 
> of my ISP's DNS servers.  Additionally the DMZ box is set to forward 
> to my ISP's cache servers.  So, at this point, all internal AD DNS is 
> stopped at the controller, and only the ISA box can resolve DNS and 
> only to the DMZ DNS server.  My internal Exchange clusters' stack 
> resolves to the AD controller, and they smart host deliver mail to my 
> DMZ GFI gateway, so still no DNS leaving.  The GFI box in the DMZ uses
the DMZ DNS.
> 
> The trick is that though I'm primary DNS, and though any changes I 
> make to my DNS hosts are immediately replicated to my ISP as secondary

> DNS, I've registered my DNS with the domain registry as my *ISP* being

> primary.
> So
> the world resolves my host names via my *ISP's* DNS servers, not
*mine*.
> I
> don't even have to publish DNS at all.
> 
> The end result is that no DNS requests leave my internal network at 
> all, except for a single DNS box in the DMZ that can only resolve to 
> the ISP DNS caches.  There is no publishing at all, no internal paths,

> no vulns, nothing at all since the world resolves to the ISP boxes yet

> I have full control over all host name entries.
> 
> It's a pretty tight config.
> 
> t
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/18/06 11:01 AM, "Thomas W Shinder" <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
> spoketh to
> all:
> 
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> The T-Man is definitely right about this.
>> 
>> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
>> Site: www.isaserver.org
>> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
>> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
>> MVP -- Microsoft Firewalls (ISA)
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of
>>> God)
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:52 PM
>>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>> 
>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>   
>>> Why do your internal clients need to resolve DNS directly?  I never 
>>> ever use forwarders on my AD boxes.  I always create root zones on 
>>> my
> 
>>> AD DNS servers and only use ISA to resolve DNS for web proxy/fw 
>>> clients.
>>> 
>>> That's where what I consider "true" security and separation comes 
>>> from.
>>> 
>>> t
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/18/06 9:13 AM, "ISA" <ISA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to all:
>>> 
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This actually has happened with and without forwarders -
>>>> 
>>>> Steve, I interpret your suggestion as using only the Root Hints?
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>>>> 
>>>> Network Blade Inc.
>>>> 
>>>> 49 Marcy Street
>>>> 
>>>> Somerset, NJ 08873
>>>> 
>>>> 732-213-0600
>>>> 
>>>> www.networkblade.com
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Moffat
>>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:08 PM Posted To: ISA
>>>> Conversation: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>   
>>>> FWIW.....I have 2 caching only DNS Servers that I setup to use as 
>>>> forwarders for my AD DNS Servers, when I use them, I get
>>> the very same
>>>> issue. If I however, remove them from the forwarders
>>> section, I have no
>>>> DNS Issues at all whatsoever, anytime.
>>>> 
>>>> S
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of ISA
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 1:03 PM
>>>> To: ISA Mailing List
>>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks Mike:
>>>> 
>>>> I will try clearing the cache - but this happens now about everyday

>>>> (morning usually). I really have to find the source of the problem.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>>>> 
>>>> Network Blade Inc.
>>>> 
>>>> 49 Marcy Street
>>>> 
>>>> Somerset, NJ 08873
>>>> 
>>>> 732-213-0600
>>>> 
>>>> www.networkblade.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Michael Ross
>>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:01 PM Posted To: ISA
>>>> Conversation: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Windows 2003 DNS servers?
>>>> Believe it or not, ive seen that . It's a cache pollution type of 
>>>> behavior, with no logging or other signs to prove that.
>>>> Try to clear the DNS cache next time and see if it helps.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of ISA
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:59 AM
>>>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Steve: Funny you should say that because I've done that a few
times.
>>>> 
>>>> DNS stops - I removed the forwards - Restart DNS - DNS works.
>>>> DNS stops - I change the forwards - Restart DNS - DNS works.
>>>> 
>>>> I want to blame my server but I'm just not sure where the
>>> failure is.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>>>> 
>>>> Network Blade Inc.
>>>> 
>>>> 49 Marcy Street
>>>> 
>>>> Somerset, NJ 08873
>>>> 
>>>> 732-213-0600
>>>> 
>>>> www.networkblade.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Moffat
>>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:55 AM Posted To: ISA
>>>> Conversation: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Remove the forwarders.....then see how fast your Internet speed
>>>> gets...:)
>>>> 
>>>> S
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of ISA
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:49 PM
>>>> To: ISA Mailing List
>>>> Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Hello All -
>>>> 
>>>> This might be off-topic, but has anyone every had their
>>> Windows DNS/DC
>>>> server intermittently stop forwarding DNS requests?
>>>> 
>>>> I checked with the ISP and they don't recognize and
>>> problems on their
>>>> end.
>>>> 
>>>> JD
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> All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned.
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ISA Server Articles and Tutorials:
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ISA Server Blogs: http://blogs.isaserver.org/
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ISA Server Articles and Tutorials: http://www.isaserver.org/articles_tutorials/ 
ISA Server Blogs: http://blogs.isaserver.org/ 
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