[isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
- From: "Amy Babinchak" <amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:43:17 -0400
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
Fortunately my client list contains 0 P2P networks so it was rhetorical
question anyway. I have never seen an P2P network with an internal DNS
server so I'm wondering if this is common practice these days among that
that do P2P?
Amy
-----Original Message-----
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:32 PM
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
Users don't care because they just "want you to make it work".
How you go about that within the framework of the current contract is
your business.
If you're happy building P2P networks that depend on NB broadcast for
internal connectivity, that's up to you since you have to support them,
but I strongly encourage you to rethink this position.
-----Original Message-----
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:33 PM
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
I do often fear them because I only have so much time in my life to
learn new stuff. At least what I learn about one Microsoft app is
somewhat transferable to others.
So what's the advantage of running DNS on an XP workstation on a
peer-peer network? I don't think the users are going to care and it'll
just be one more machine they have to keep running to keep the network
going. Just like the "print server" workstation.
Amy
-----Original Message-----
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:23 PM
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
If there is a network, then there is at least one machine.
If they have one single machine, they can have a DNS server.
XP can run DNS services unless you're afraid of a non-MS solution.
-----Original Message-----
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:15 PM
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
From his description I was assuming no server. He mentioned very small
businesses.
Amy
-----Original Message-----
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 4:49 PM
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
Sez hoo?
If you have a single machine, you have the possibility of operating your
own DNS service.
-----Original Message-----
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:47 PM
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
Joseph,
Are you saying that you need DNS functionality on a network without a
firewall? In that case you have no choice but the use the DNS server
provided by the ISP. You also have larger security concerns than DNS.
If what you are saying is you have a non-ISA non-SBS environment with a
firewall appliance you can usually use this appliance as the DNS server
for your workstations provided you buy one in the $200+ range. If you go
with the $50 model, when then you're in the same spot as paragraph 1.
Amy
-----Original Message-----
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of ISA
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:54 AM
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
Thor - a most excellent passage of DNS and network security.
Unfortunately, I usually run into the typical client (as was this case)
that only has one server, one gateway (pikes, conicwell etc) and a few
clients.
ISA, DMZ and hosting of anything themselves is out of the question
(except that which is offered by SBS 2003).
The fundamental question is how to best configure the network to allow
the clients and server to resolve internet names (where ISA/DMZ are not
present). I would assume that your clients are pointing to the DC/DNS
server!?! From there, there are a few options: Configure DNS server to
forward / not forward, configure it's NIC with for the ISP DNS server IP
etc.
Actually I suppose this question/scenario might not be best addressed
from this list; since this list is dedicated to ISA which is an
enterprise product not represented well in the SMALL small business
market.
Thanks again for the DNS brief - that'll be another one that I'll
archive for my records.
Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
Network Blade Inc.
49 Marcy Street
Somerset, NJ 08873
732-213-0600
www.networkblade.com
-----Original Message-----
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God)
Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:50 PM Posted To: ISA
Conversation: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
I've found that many people seem to dance over the security
ramifications of DNS/forwarders when designing an infrastructure. I had
some off-list conversations about this, and thought that it may be
valuable to fully flesh-out what I think the issues are and how to avoid
them. Now's also probably a good time to share my "trick" regarding
publicly available DNS and minimizing service exposure. So, for the
benefit of those who are
interested:
When AD DNS is configured as a forwarder, all domain members using that
DNS server will be able to resolve hostnames directly from their IP
stack.
There is no operational reason to have this-- when one considers that
most spyware/malware/trojans/backdoors/shells/etc typically depend on
hostname lookups for direct access to a resource, the capability of a
client box to perform direct host lookups outside your network should
(to me) be considered unwanted and un-needed. Personally, I qualify it
as "dangerous."
That's why I always configure my AD DNS with a root (.) zone- that way,
only local zones may be queried by the client's stack. I typically only
use web proxy clients for HTTP(S)/FTP where all DNS is proxied by the
ISA box.
If
one needs direct DNS for another application (say DOS FTP) then use the
FWC and all DNS will be resolved over the control channel, still being
proxied by the ISA server.
The ISA server itself will have whatever "public" DNS server configured
in its stack so that it can do the resolution for the clients.
Not only is direct client DNS "dangerous," but having an AD box set up
as a forwarder is "dangerous" as well as the box must be configured to
access a remote resource over TCP/UDP 53. This also means that you've
opened that box up for incoming traffic on TCP/UDP 53 as well. Having
static paths into your internal network from source port routing is
crazy. I can push anything I want over 53, not just DNS (and have ;).
Remember, the DNS filter is only for published DNS servers, not clients
requesting DNS lookups.
But there is the issue of one wanting complete control over host names
and the need to publish your own DNS. This is what the DMZ is for. The
DMZ box is set as a forwarding server, and the internal ISA box is set
to use that box for all DNS requests. In this way, only the ISA box
itself need to request DNS outside the internal network, and it is
already protected.
In
this manner, there is no DNS leaving the internal network at all, and no
static ports into the internal network-- only the ISA box looking up
DNS, and only to that DMZ resource. The DNS server in the DMZ is
protected by the border ISA box, which (where necessary) is publishing
DNS to the DMZ for remote hosts to look up your domain information. And
here the DNS filter is used.
But you can get even better than that-- you can actually be fully in
control of your own zone data without having to actually publish your
DNS to the world if you have a decent ISP.
Here's what I do for that-- I have DMZ DNS servers set up as primary DNS
zones, and have told my ISP to set up their servers as secondary zones
for my domains. The DMZ box can only zone transfer to the IP's of my
ISP's DNS servers. Additionally the DMZ box is set to forward to my
ISP's cache servers. So, at this point, all internal AD DNS is stopped
at the controller, and only the ISA box can resolve DNS and only to the
DMZ DNS server. My internal Exchange clusters' stack resolves to the AD
controller, and they smart host deliver mail to my DMZ GFI gateway, so
still no DNS leaving. The GFI box in the DMZ uses the DMZ DNS.
The trick is that though I'm primary DNS, and though any changes I make
to my DNS hosts are immediately replicated to my ISP as secondary DNS,
I've registered my DNS with the domain registry as my *ISP* being
primary.
So
the world resolves my host names via my *ISP's* DNS servers, not *mine*.
I
don't even have to publish DNS at all.
The end result is that no DNS requests leave my internal network at all,
except for a single DNS box in the DMZ that can only resolve to the ISP
DNS caches. There is no publishing at all, no internal paths, no vulns,
nothing at all since the world resolves to the ISP boxes yet I have full
control over all host name entries.
It's a pretty tight config.
t
On 10/18/06 11:01 AM, "Thomas W Shinder" <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh
to
all:
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> The T-Man is definitely right about this.
>
> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> Site: www.isaserver.org
> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> MVP -- Microsoft Firewalls (ISA)
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of
>> God)
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:52 PM
>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Why do your internal clients need to resolve DNS directly? I never
>> ever use forwarders on my AD boxes. I always create root zones on my
>> AD DNS servers and only use ISA to resolve DNS for web proxy/fw
>> clients.
>>
>> That's where what I consider "true" security and separation comes
>> from.
>>
>> t
>>
>>
>> On 10/18/06 9:13 AM, "ISA" <ISA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to all:
>>
>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> This actually has happened with and without forwarders -
>>>
>>> Steve, I interpret your suggestion as using only the Root Hints?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>>>
>>> Network Blade Inc.
>>>
>>> 49 Marcy Street
>>>
>>> Somerset, NJ 08873
>>>
>>> 732-213-0600
>>>
>>> www.networkblade.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> On Behalf Of Steve Moffat
>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:08 PM Posted To: ISA
>>> Conversation: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>
>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> FWIW.....I have 2 caching only DNS Servers that I setup to use as
>>> forwarders for my AD DNS Servers, when I use them, I get
>> the very same
>>> issue. If I however, remove them from the forwarders
>> section, I have no
>>> DNS Issues at all whatsoever, anytime.
>>>
>>> S
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> On Behalf Of ISA
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 1:03 PM
>>> To: ISA Mailing List
>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>
>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Thanks Mike:
>>>
>>> I will try clearing the cache - but this happens now about everyday
>>> (morning usually). I really have to find the source of the problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>>>
>>> Network Blade Inc.
>>>
>>> 49 Marcy Street
>>>
>>> Somerset, NJ 08873
>>>
>>> 732-213-0600
>>>
>>> www.networkblade.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> On Behalf Of Michael Ross
>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:01 PM Posted To: ISA
>>> Conversation: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>
>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Windows 2003 DNS servers?
>>> Believe it or not, ive seen that . It's a cache pollution type of
>>> behavior, with no logging or other signs to prove that.
>>> Try to clear the DNS cache next time and see if it helps.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> On Behalf Of ISA
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:59 AM
>>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>
>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Steve: Funny you should say that because I've done that a few times.
>>>
>>> DNS stops - I removed the forwards - Restart DNS - DNS works.
>>> DNS stops - I change the forwards - Restart DNS - DNS works.
>>>
>>> I want to blame my server but I'm just not sure where the
>> failure is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>>>
>>> Network Blade Inc.
>>>
>>> 49 Marcy Street
>>>
>>> Somerset, NJ 08873
>>>
>>> 732-213-0600
>>>
>>> www.networkblade.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> On Behalf Of Steve Moffat
>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:55 AM Posted To: ISA
>>> Conversation: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>
>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Remove the forwarders.....then see how fast your Internet speed
>>> gets...:)
>>>
>>> S
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> On Behalf Of ISA
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:49 PM
>>> To: ISA Mailing List
>>> Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>
>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Hello All -
>>>
>>> This might be off-topic, but has anyone every had their
>> Windows DNS/DC
>>> server intermittently stop forwarding DNS requests?
>>>
>>> I checked with the ISP and they don't recognize and
>> problems on their
>>> end.
>>>
>>> JD
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
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