[Ilugc] Re: Hai Sriram
- From: linux@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Suresh Ramasubramanian)
- Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:29:12 +0530
[3/31/2004 8:13 PM] SaravanaKumar :
You know what Linus says (See my signature).
The whole OSS is for to encourage programmers to develop programs,
interact with others programmers etc. and merely working in linux
doesn't meant that all are against M$. I myself is a Linux Admin taking
care of a network of Linux systems.
So are a lot of people here, for values of network ranging from a small
lan on a 64k leased line to multiple racks of servers processing
millions of emails a day.
If linux becomes popular, it will on its own merits, and it does help if
background noise like linux users running down windows users, or debian
users saying that they have the one true gnu/linux and everybody else
should call it gnu/linux, or whatever, gets cut down.
Even if u go to some computer study centres here they begin from Windows
then teach MS-Office, etc. This has to change first. Atleast some of
the centres must offer Linux based courses( to all those new to
computers and first time touching it).
yeah, so the same guys will install RH and teach RHCE courses, and the
instructors from (say) niit and aptech will come here with questions
like "Hi, how do i compile a c program in linux?" <- no I'm not joking,
this has happened more than once.
ilugc was talking about reaching out to colleges, right?
Go ahead, set up a free / open house linux seminar / install fest sort
of thing. Combine it with a party or outing of some kind - maybe do it
at the MCC in tambaram and organize a cricket match to end the day.
So dont fight to destroy MS. If u like MS use it, dont like leave it.
BTW i dont use MS.
I use Windows XP. I use FreeBSD. I use Slackware. I use whatever gets
my job done faster and easier. On the server side, freebsd / linux - no
argument about that. On the desktop side the answer is still Windows
right now (or I'd switch to MacOS X). Not KDE, not Gnome, not Blackbox
or other WM on XFree86 - at least, not yet.
srs
From Sudharsan.S.N." <sudharsan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Wed Mar 31 15:24:12 2004
From: Sudharsan.S.N." <sudharsan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Sudharsan.S.N.)
Date: 31 Mar 2004 15:24:12 -0000
Subject: [Ilugc] Are you serious?
Message-ID: <20040331152412.9210.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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<P>=0A--- Sriram Krishnan <ksriram@xxxxxxx> wrote:<BR>=0A<BR>=0A>B=
ut look at<BR>=0A>the sheer difference in scale here..Windows runs over =
95% of the <BR>=0A>world's<BR>=0A>desktops(I'm making up that statist=
ic..but I'm sure its pretty close ><BR>=0A>to the real number).<BR>=
=0A<BR>=0AThat is what is changing!! I mean that 'percentage'!!<BR>=0A<BR>=
=0A>Now, let's say that I want to teach how to use a computer to my mom.=
<BR>=0A>Which OS do you think she would have a better experience with? W=
indows<BR>=0A>which takes you on a tour of the OS at start-up or any Lin=
ux distro<BR>=0A>which asks you whether you want to partition your hard-=
disk and <BR>=0A>whether<BR>=0A>you want your bootloader on your MBR?=
<BR>=0A<BR>=0AThe question of installing the bootloader in the MBR is for =
people like us who wud want a better organization of our hard disks and not=
for our moms who wud want to get simple jobs done. Your mom wud obviously =
be worried abt operating it after its is being loaded and not abt how parti=
tioning being done. If you leave ur mom with a fresh hard disk and a window=
s CD same wud be the case!! Considering it`s a fresh hard disk and a Linux =
distro it is very much the same. The problem comes only when there is an ex=
isiting windows platform and u install Linux on the free space u have, and =
once again ur mom wud have to be worried only abt working on the OS than tr=
ying to install the boot loader. Well, I`d presume u cud install it for her=
!! Any user like ur mom or even my mom wud only be worried how simple the O=
S works and once you/me going to teach her it doesnt really make a differen=
ce between windows and linux. <BR>=0A<BR>=0ATrying to say she is going to f=
ind Windows easier and Linux worser, makes a difference if u r going to tea=
ch her Linux. As for her experience, if ur going to start with the ba=
sics, trying to explain things on how to work - it doesn`t really make a di=
fference and trying to say windows wud be 'superior' is not to be assumed. =
As I very clearly said the availability of code does not matter and the eas=
e-of-use point is also not to be taken considering the visual interfaces in=
both make it simple. You cud have showed me earlier Linux versions but pre=
sently the thing that really drives Linux distros is not all these OSS stuf=
f entirely......they r really focussing on making it really simpler and the=
y have made it really simple than what it used to be.<BR>=0A<BR>=0A>BTW,=
I'm not the only one ranting about poor usability in OSS<BR>=0A>softwar=
e...some one called Eric.S.Raymond had a pretty long and nasty<BR>=0A>ra=
nt about how bad the UI is in most OSS software...<BR>=0A<BR>=0ATrying to s=
ay UIs are bad in all OSS is a spurious argument in itself. It all depends =
upon the user, and present day if u consider proprietary Windows and OSS Li=
nux the UI does not differ to the 'bad' extent.<BR>=0AYour ranting isnt goi=
ng to make a difference in the quality of the UIs. CUIs are amazing in UNIX=
/Linux and hardcore programmers know that better. If you try to compare the=
CUI MS-Dos with UNIX/Linux, ur joking!! When it comes to GUIs there isn`t =
a big difference!! GUI is a concept and a technology in itself and trying t=
o say that GUIs in OSS are 'bad' very well applies to Windows which also be=
lieves that GUI is the best thing promoting it`s 'quality'. Trying to compa=
re two OSs on the same technology of GUI and saying one is 'bad' isn`t a he=
althy argument in itself.<BR>=0A<BR>=0A<BR>=0A>The day the OSS community=
<BR>=0A>understands that programmers are PATHETIC at UI design and usabi=
lity,<BR>=0A>then MS will have a concrete threat (I'm a programmer by th=
e way...:-)<BR>=0A<BR>=0AAs I had said above when it comes to CUIs, try to =
conduct a honest survey amidst programmers, the CUIs in Unix/Linux are the =
best. When u talk abt GUIs - Pls read the previous paragraph abt the concep=
t of GUIs.<BR>=0A<BR>=0AWhen trying to compare CUIs the OSS community has h=
ardly had a threat from MS and I doubt if they have ever considered MS as a=
so-called 'threat'. When talking abt GUIs, that was what stood between Uni=
x entering personal desktops - Anyway, Linux made the difference.<BR>=0A<BR=
=0A>As for the 'costs' factor, I'm a bit confused here. I thought=
I knew <BR>=0A>my<BR>=0A>GNU manifesto pretty well..whatever happene=
d to 'free as in speech and<BR>=0A>not free as in beer'? If OSS says tha=
t all their software has to be<BR>=0A>free(as in beer),people like IBM a=
nd Sun (so called friends of OSS)<BR>=0A>would run away screaming. Are y=
ou saying that the only way Linux is<BR>=0A>better than Windows to the '=
lay-man user' is because it is cheaper?<BR>=0A<BR>=0A>But considering th=
at he is a person worried about costs, think again!! Ok, let`s keep aside c=
ost for some > >time. <BR>=0A<BR>=0AI have very clearly mentioned onl=
y one statement talking abt costs and I didn`t go too much into it. But the=
re was one more post in the group abt trying to migrate to some other hardw=
are just to run ur OS and getting the best out of existing hardware.Kindly =
read that.<BR>=0AThe factors involving hardware use in MS and Linux is very=
clearly elucidated there. Kindly refer to that, it has been CCed to you to=
o!!<BR>=0A<BR>=0A>If OSS says that all their software has to be<BR>=0A&g=
t;free(as in beer),people like IBM and Sun (so called friends of OSS)<BR>=
=0A>would run away screaming.<BR>=0A<BR>=0ALet`s take the example of cha=
rges for certain editions of Linux. The distros too do not charge for the O=
S but for tech support and the service charges. Try downloading all program=
mes required to run Linux and try compiling and executing them to be writte=
n onto the boot loader. What the distros do is do that work for you and pro=
vide tech support. I think IBM and Sun know better abt this than both of us=
do - They r talking abt freedom to tweak with ur code and not free, like t=
he bit notices we get when going to Home-Life exhibitions. They are not giv=
ing free(as in beer and bit notices) distributions but free(as in sspeech) =
distributions. <BR>=0A<BR>=0A>What .NET does give you is freedom. Freedo=
m to concentrate on your<BR>=0A>problem at hand rather than where that p=
esky memory leak is from.<BR>=0A>Freedom to worry about what happens whe=
n the user clicks the button<BR>=0A>rather than wiring up the callback f=
unctions properly. Freedom to<BR>=0A>convert seamlessly from a huge arra=
y of data sources and do some<BR>=0A>amazingly cool stuff with them (e.g=
databinding in ASP.NET). Freedom <BR>=0A>to<BR>=0A>think about what =
your app should do rather than how you can coax your<BR>=0A>computer to =
do what your app wants to do.<BR>=0A<BR>=0A>But never have we felt the n=
eed for source<BR>=0A>code...the wealth of documentation that is out the=
re in MSDN as well <BR>=0A>as<BR>=0A>Google is more than sufficient .=
<BR>=0A<BR>=0A>For this category of 'Engineers' source code is not luxur=
y but a basic >requirement, developing it or using it <BR>=0A>is abso=
lutely upto the skill level of the engineer or anjaneyar using >it. The =
'freedom' as in speech is <BR>=0A>compulsory. <BR>=0A<BR>=0AMy argument =
abt 'giving everything' was in reply to your statement abt the 'wealth of d=
ocumentation in MSDN' and not abt 'problem at hand' stuff. Freedom is what =
is the maximum you can do as a programmer and not the maximum you can do wi=
th .NET alone. You feel having the source code as an Engineer it`s a luxury=
but the whole of the OSS community and even the programming world wud cons=
ider it as a requirement.<BR>=0A<BR>=0A<BR>=0A>And<BR>=0A>I feel that=
I know .NET well...I still haven't come across anybody who<BR>=0A>faces=
problems because of the lack of source code to .NET. If I feel<BR>=0A>t=
hat I can't get the job done due to the lack of some tool, I'm more<BR>=0A&=
gt;than happy to pay him for his work and I respect his right to keep his<B=
R>=0A>trade secrets.<BR>=0A<BR>=0AThis is the easiest thing anybody can =
do, c`mon be an engineer!! The whole point is abt doing things by yourself,=
if you can. I sure presume u will complete all ur papers and become an eng=
ineer in the truest sense. My hearty wishes. "Trade secrets",etc,=
come later.<BR>=0A<BR>=0A>I really don't think I want to spend<BR>=0A&g=
t;my life debugging other people's code...I want to write the next <BR>=0A&=
gt;Google,<BR>=0A>the next Feedster, the next ICQ...I want to become ric=
h like Bill<BR>=0A>Gates...not spend my time debugging soembody else's m=
emory management<BR>=0A>code...when I'm neither getting paid for it nor =
am I getting any fame<BR>=0A>out of it. Hobbyist programming we all do a=
nd enjoy...but in the end,<BR>=0A>it's not viable as a full time profess=
ion(unless you're as good as <BR>=0A>Linus<BR>=0A>or RMS). Who's gonn=
a get you the money to pay the rent and buy that<BR>=0A>shiny new car?<B=
R>=0A<BR>=0ABy debugging other`s code u can see what`s essentially wrong, w=
hat is right, what can be done!! Anyway OSS programmer are not debuggers. T=
hey dont get error reports and debug their previous versions and <BR>=0Are-=
release them under a new 'jilpans' name. All people in the OSS community ar=
e rightly credited and they r as famous as the tool they have developed or =
contributed to. They get their due share of name and fame and r not unpaid =
programmers. They get their share of fame and are paid well. <BR>=0A<BR>=0A=
Getting ur shiny new car is about being able to contribute so much to creat=
e an improvisation so that u get ur car faster than an OSS programmer. Ever=
ybody is going to get a car anyway, being able to do it fast is what is req=
uired(unless otherwise). Kernel developers(debuggers, as u wud call them as=
) can get themselves shiny new cars faster than most others. If u can do so=
mething radical enough to be called a 'contribution' send it to the OSS com=
munity, u will get ur name-fame and if it`s good enough - ur shiny new car.=
It is ur skill that will get u anywhere!!<BR>=0A<BR>=0A> Hobbyist progr=
amming we all do and enjoy...but in the end,<BR>=0A>it's not viable as a=
full time profession(unless you're as good as <BR>=0A>Linus<BR>=0A>o=
r RMS). <BR>=0A<BR>=0AOSS programmer are not people in Tirumala Tirupathi D=
evasthanam who do honorary work - they r very much programmers who program =
every day for their daily bread. Linus and RMS aren`t the only ones who r p=
aid, people working on OSS projects are well paid. As u said hobby programm=
ers, need not be paid, but will get their due credit. Linus was very much l=
ike that - he didnt develop an OS because somebody was waiting with keys to=
a shiny new car or to appear in TIME magazine cover, or to counter MS. But=
that became his profession of releasing kernels and trying pack more punch=
into his OS.<BR>=0A<BR>=0A>The one that asks you whetheryou want to rep=
ort it to Microsoft. Ever <BR>=0A>wondered what they <BR>=0A>Did with=
all that data....let me tell you what they do. Right now, <BR>=0A>they'=
ve collected<BR>=0A>several terabytes (yes..terabytes) of data from that=
error reporting<BR>=0A>service. And you know what they've found? That m=
ost crashes comes from<BR>=0A>apps not written by Microsoft. Bad device =
drives. Bad plug-ins. <BR>=0A>Software<BR>=0A>that tries to write to =
files it doesn't have permission for.<BR>=0A<BR>=0AWhat r they going to do =
with the several TBs of errors resulting due to OS problems? Trying to say =
Win is error-free wud be a big joke!! Linux handles almost all such things =
u have mentioned with a simple msg which prevents u from carrying on furthe=
r than let the whole platform on which all the applications r resting to cr=
ash and having to do the 'holy' act of restarting the system. <BR>=0A<BR>=
=0A>When you say "the user can get his job done without hassles in =
<BR>=0A>Linux" ,<BR>=0A>what exactly do you mean? Tell you what,=
let's have a race...I'll use >my<BR>=0A>WinXp box and you take a dis=
tro of your choice. I'll pull out my<BR>=0A>digicam, web cam , USB drive=
,portable MP3 player, iPod....let's see<BR>=0A>who's able to use them f=
irst. Or is it unthinkable that Linux users <BR>=0A>will<BR>=0A>want =
to listen to music and see pictures that they have taken?<BR>=0A<BR>=0AThe =
outcome of the race will be determined by how well we know our operating sy=
stems than the OS in itself. If I lose it does not mean Linux is hopeless o=
r vice versa - it will just show that we have not been able to use our OS e=
ffectively. Well, dont talk abt hardware meant for proprietary Windows that=
take time to get working in Linux with additional plugins!! If ur ta=
lking abt Linux/Windows compatible hardware I only see myself restarting se=
rvices and running Kudzu and then than restarting the whole system one mill=
ion times!!<BR>=0A<BR>=0AAnyway we can have a race, maybe I can get my job =
done before restarting ur system, and as I had said not with hardwares whic=
h provide windows compatibility CD.<BR>=0A<BR>=0A> Or is it unthinkable =
that Linux users will<BR>=0A>want to listen to music and see pictures th=
at they have taken?<BR>=0A<BR>=0AHaven`t u heard of XMMS with mp3 plugin an=
d the so-many picture seeing and processing tools in Linux?<BR>=0A<BR>=0A<B=
R>=0A>Well, now you know :-) Microsoft has a deep relationship with a lo=
t of<BR>=0A>universities. In fact a lot of universities (including some =
of the<BR>=0A>Indian IITs, I hear) have full access to Windows Source co=
de. In fact,<BR>=0A>the recent Windows code leak came from Mainsoft (whi=
ch runs Linux<BR>=0A>servers btw :-) )<BR>=0A<BR>=0AWell universities ha=
ve them, fine!!What abt you and me, the programming community? The Godforsa=
ken code had to be leaked and not given out fairly to the programming commu=
nity. This seems to prove the point.<BR>=0A<BR>=0A>My original argument =
was that you don't need access to source code to <BR>=0A>be efficient or=
to innovate <BR>=0A<BR>=0AWhen I say innovation I very specifically mean w=
hat lies beyond the available domain. What can you do with Windows if u wan=
t to add a feature to it? What can u do with .NET if u want to add a functi=
onality to it? Mail Bill gates?? I`m not talking abt implementing what lies=
within your maximum limits such as .NET dcomunentation or MSDN which might=
help you add new things. But let`s say u have a new concept which u might =
atleast try to implement, u cant even try that in MS. MS talks about the do=
me of St.Paul`s cathedral and says u can do anything in it, but I`m talking=
abt the world that lies outside St.Paul`s dome. You r fascinated by the bi=
ggest dome, but the argument against MS is that there is a well-defined lim=
it within which u can 'innovate'. <BR>=0A<BR>=0AAs an Engineer and a develo=
per access to source code is a must, and as I had clearly said in my previo=
us mail - "developing it or using it is absolutely upto the skill leve=
l of the engineer or anjaneyar using it. " Maybe u have never needed i=
t, there are people who need it and who r constantly working on it.<BR>=0A<=
BR>=0A>Hmm...do you really need access to the source code to type out a<=
BR>=0A>OpenOffice document. Or does my mom need access to Photoshop's so=
urce<BR>=0A>code to touch up a few photos?<BR>=0A<BR>=0AU r repeatedly t=
rying to compare the skill level of the users to use the code or not. U r m=
om does not need source code, but as an Engineer u 'might' want it if u rea=
lly believe in improvising. Okay let`s take the example of a person who has=
a really good thing to improvise upon, as one of our fellow luggians said =
- trying to meddle with the lens filter in Adobe photoshop - wud u be able =
to do it? In the OSS community he wud be given his due credit!! But in the =
MS world his suggestion(error report) wud be taken and incorporated(not sur=
e) and somebody else takes credit and gets name,fame and shiny new cars. <B=
R>=0A<BR>=0A>Err....that's why a majority of the Fortune 500 companies r=
un Windows <BR>=0A>is it? :-) Seriously, do back up your statements with=
benchmarks.<BR>=0A<BR>=0AWell, I sure presume you know that most of them r=
migrating to Linux and in this process a new field called migration techno=
logy has emerged. If u have people doing it as a regular professional job, =
then just imagine the sheer extent to which actual migration is happening. =
Well, in simple terms ur talking abt history and I`m talking abt the future=
.<BR>=0A<BR>=0A<BR>=0A>Ok, the point I'm trying to make here is that a d=
ebate on Linux vs<BR>=0A>Windows is pointless. <BR>=0A<BR>=0AI shud infa=
ct thank you for the "Are you serious?" thread that u had started=
. A very good quality argument from all fellow Luggians has come out which =
has undoubtedly been trying to prove things as they are and not as how you =
and I percieve it to be. This is not something which you and I can end, it =
will go on and has been going on for quite a long time, ever since Linus se=
nt his first mail about the OS code which he had developed from Minix. Tryi=
ng to say that this argument is 'pointless' is comical and conveying the ms=
g that they have diff target audience is baseless. You , me, our fellow Lug=
gians and the programming community is the target audience. <BR>=0A<B=
R>=0A>Windows has a different target audience...Linux<BR>=0A>has a di=
fferent target audience. <BR>=0A<BR>=0AWhat do you think? OSs are not tamil=
/bollywood movies which are made for village subject,city subject,nattammai=
-panchayath stuff,etc,. They r meant for the world. I don`t really understa=
nd what u mean to say by the word "target audience". C`mon wake u=
p!! You, me and whoever reads this mail in their computers are the target a=
udience. <BR>=0A<BR>=0A> Let's say that Microsoft<BR>=0A>suddenly cea=
ses to exist one day....then what happens. Who are you <BR>=0A>gonna<BR>=
=0A>target next? Apple?<BR>=0A>The only thing that<BR>=0A>irritate=
s me about the OSS community is their perpetual obsession with<BR>=0A>Wi=
ndows and MS.<BR>=0A<BR>=0AOSS is not against MS company and Bill gates` fo=
rtune, it`s against the "MS policies" which does not allow a user=
/programmer to do what he wants. Well, that just sums up 'our' OSS policy.<=
BR>=0A<BR>=0A<BR>=0A>Do understand that Microsoft has a huge bunch of ve=
ry talented people<BR>=0A>who produce some great software. You want to i=
mpress me..do so with<BR>=0A>software.<BR>=0A<BR>=0AI very honestly acce=
pt that MS has great programmers and also moth eaten company policies!! But=
be magnanimous enough to accept that the OSS programmers are also 'great' =
programmers and not 'debuggers' as u had said. <BR>=0A<BR>=0A>You want t=
o impress me..do so with<BR>=0A>software. Make Linux do stuff that Windo=
ws cannot do. Make OpenOffice <BR>=0A>do stuff that would kick MS Office=
's behind. Make FireFox so good that >you give the IE team in Redmond sl=
eepless nights. Forget about the<BR>=0A>MS-bashing...its just a huge was=
te of everyone's time.<BR>=0A<BR>=0AThe point is the OSS community impressi=
ng the world with quality software which is already doing the 'kicking' act=
ivities as u have mentioned above, or else nobody wud be migrating to Linux=
and have Linux project test labs which produce amazing results. I is only =
bcos somebody has not been content with the performance, a migration to Lin=
ux has come out and that has wlays been succesful. Tell me one company whic=
h has reverse migrated bcos it hasnt found the performance of Linux/OSS sat=
isfactory!! But as for all the other migrating stories, u`ll be hearing it =
all over!!<BR>=0A<BR>=0AWe r trying to compare the pros and cons of things =
and not bashing,thrashing,trolling.........Anyway this has definitely been =
a good quality argument where newbies have come to know so many things!! <B=
R>=0A<BR>=0AS.N.Sudharsan,<BR>=0AB.E.(Cse), RHCE(RH-9),<BR>=0AVelammal engi=
neering college,<BR>=0AChennai.=0A</P>=0A=0A=0AHave a nice smiling&nbs=
p;day. - S.N.Sudharsan.<br><br>=0A<A target=3D"_blank" HREF=3D"http://=
clients.rediff.com/signature/track_sig.asp"><IMG SRC=3D"
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om/RealMedia/ads/adstream_nx.cgi/www.rediffmail.com/inbox.htm@Bottom" BORDE=
R=3D0 VSPACE=3D0 HSPACE=3D0 HEIGHT=3D74 WIDTH=3D496></a>=0A
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--- Sriram Krishnan <ksriram@xxxxxxx> wrote:=0A=0A>But look at=0A>the sheer=
difference in scale here..Windows runs over 95% of the =0A>world's=0A>desk=
tops(I'm making up that statistic..but I'm sure its pretty close >=0A>to th=
e real number).=0A=0AThat is what is changing!! I mean that 'percentage'!!=
=0A=0A>Now, let's say that I want to teach how to use a computer to my mom.=
=0A>Which OS do you think she would have a better experience with? Windows=
=0A>which takes you on a tour of the OS at start-up or any Linux distro=0A>=
which asks you whether you want to partition your hard-disk and =0A>whether=
=0A>you want your bootloader on your MBR? =0A=0AThe question of installing =
the bootloader in the MBR is for people like us who wud want a better organ=
ization of our hard disks and not for our moms who wud want to get simple j=
obs done. Your mom wud obviously be worried abt operating it after its is b=
eing loaded and not abt how partitioning being done. If you leave ur mom wi=
th a fresh hard disk and a windows CD same wud be the case!! Considering it=
`s a fresh hard disk and a Linux distro it is very much the same. The probl=
em comes only when there is an exisiting windows platform and u install Lin=
ux on the free space u have, and once again ur mom wud have to be worried o=
nly abt working on the OS than trying to install the boot loader. Well, I`d=
presume u cud install it for her!! Any user like ur mom or even my mom wud=
only be worried how simple the OS works and once you/me going to teach her=
it doesnt really make a difference between windows and linux. =0A=0ATrying=
to say she is going to find Windows easier and Linux worser, makes a diffe=
rence if u r going to teach her Linux. As for her experience, if ur going =
to start with the basics, trying to explain things on how to work - it does=
n`t really make a difference and trying to say windows wud be 'superior' is=
not to be assumed. As I very clearly said the availability of code does no=
t matter and the ease-of-use point is also not to be taken considering the =
visual interfaces in both make it simple. You cud have showed me earlier Li=
nux versions but presently the thing that really drives Linux distros is no=
t all these OSS stuff entirely......they r really focussing on making it re=
ally simpler and they have made it really simple than what it used to be.=
=0A=0A>BTW, I'm not the only one ranting about poor usability in OSS=0A>sof=
tware...some one called Eric.S.Raymond had a pretty long and nasty=0A>rant =
about how bad the UI is in most OSS software...=0A=0ATrying to say UIs are =
bad in all OSS is a spurious argument in itself. It all depends upon the us=
er, and present day if u consider proprietary Windows and OSS Linux the UI =
does not differ to the 'bad' extent.=0AYour ranting isnt going to make a di=
fference in the quality of the UIs. CUIs are amazing in UNIX/Linux and hard=
core programmers know that better. If you try to compare the CUI MS-Dos wit=
h UNIX/Linux, ur joking!! When it comes to GUIs there isn`t a big differenc=
e!! GUI is a concept and a technology in itself and trying to say that GUIs=
in OSS are 'bad' very well applies to Windows which also believes that GUI=
is the best thing promoting it`s 'quality'. Trying to compare two OSs on t=
he same technology of GUI and saying one is 'bad' isn`t a healthy argument =
in itself.=0A=0A=0A>The day the OSS community=0A>understands that programme=
rs are PATHETIC at UI design and usability,=0A>then MS will have a concrete=
threat (I'm a programmer by the way...:-)=0A=0AAs I had said above when it=
comes to CUIs, try to conduct a honest survey amidst programmers, the CUIs=
in Unix/Linux are the best. When u talk abt GUIs - Pls read the previous p=
aragraph abt the concept of GUIs.=0A=0AWhen trying to compare CUIs the OSS =
community has hardly had a threat from MS and I doubt if they have ever con=
sidered MS as a so-called 'threat'. When talking abt GUIs, that was what st=
ood between Unix entering personal desktops - Anyway, Linux made the differ=
ence.=0A=0A>As for the 'costs' factor, I'm a bit confused here. I thought =
I knew =0A>my=0A>GNU manifesto pretty well..whatever happened to 'free as i=
n speech and=0A>not free as in beer'? If OSS says that all their software h=
as to be=0A>free(as in beer),people like IBM and Sun (so called friends of =
OSS)=0A>would run away screaming. Are you saying that the only way Linux is=
=0A>better than Windows to the 'lay-man user' is because it is cheaper?=0A=
=0A>But considering that he is a person worried about costs, think again!! =
Ok, let`s keep aside cost for some > >time. =0A=0AI have very clearly menti=
oned only one statement talking abt costs and I didn`t go too much into it.=
But there was one more post in the group abt trying to migrate to some oth=
er hardware just to run ur OS and getting the best out of existing hardware=
.Kindly read that.=0AThe factors involving hardware use in MS and Linux is =
very clearly elucidated there. Kindly refer to that, it has been CCed to yo=
u too!!=0A=0A>If OSS says that all their software has to be=0A>free(as in b=
eer),people like IBM and Sun (so called friends of OSS)=0A>would run away s=
creaming.=0A=0ALet`s take the example of charges for certain editions of Li=
nux. The distros too do not charge for the OS but for tech support and the =
service charges. Try downloading all programmes required to run Linux and t=
ry compiling and executing them to be written onto the boot loader. What th=
e distros do is do that work for you and provide tech support. I think IBM =
and Sun know better abt this than both of us do - They r talking abt freedo=
m to tweak with ur code and not free, like the bit notices we get when goin=
g to Home-Life exhibitions. They are not giving free(as in beer and bit not=
ices) distributions but free(as in sspeech) distributions. =0A=0A>What .NET=
does give you is freedom. Freedom to concentrate on your=0A>problem at han=
d rather than where that pesky memory leak is from.=0A>Freedom to worry abo=
ut what happens when the user clicks the button=0A>rather than wiring up th=
e callback functions properly. Freedom to=0A>convert seamlessly from a huge=
array of data sources and do some=0A>amazingly cool stuff with them (e.g d=
atabinding in ASP.NET). Freedom =0A>to=0A>think about what your app should =
do rather than how you can coax your=0A>computer to do what your app wants =
to do.=0A=0A>But never have we felt the need for source=0A>code...the wealt=
h of documentation that is out there in MSDN as well =0A>as=0A>Google is mo=
re than sufficient .=0A=0A>For this category of 'Engineers' source code is =
not luxury but a basic >requirement, developing it or using it =0A>is absol=
utely upto the skill level of the engineer or anjaneyar using >it. The 'fre=
edom' as in speech is =0A>compulsory. =0A=0AMy argument abt 'giving everyth=
ing' was in reply to your statement abt the 'wealth of documentation in MSD=
N' and not abt 'problem at hand' stuff. Freedom is what is the maximum you =
can do as a programmer and not the maximum you can do with .NET alone. You =
feel having the source code as an Engineer it`s a luxury but the whole of t=
he OSS community and even the programming world wud consider it as a requir=
ement.=0A=0A=0A>And=0A>I feel that I know .NET well...I still haven't come =
across anybody who=0A>faces problems because of the lack of source code to =
.NET. If I feel=0A>that I can't get the job done due to the lack of some to=
ol, I'm more=0A>than happy to pay him for his work and I respect his right =
to keep his=0A>trade secrets.=0A=0AThis is the easiest thing anybody can do=
, c`mon be an engineer!! The whole point is abt doing things by yourself, i=
f you can. I sure presume u will complete all ur papers and become an engin=
eer in the truest sense. My hearty wishes. "Trade secrets",etc, come later.=
=0A=0A>I really don't think I want to spend=0A>my life debugging other peop=
le's code...I want to write the next =0A>Google,=0A>the next Feedster, the =
next ICQ...I want to become rich like Bill=0A>Gates...not spend my time deb=
ugging soembody else's memory management=0A>code...when I'm neither getting=
paid for it nor am I getting any fame=0A>out of it. Hobbyist programming w=
e all do and enjoy...but in the end,=0A>it's not viable as a full time prof=
ession(unless you're as good as =0A>Linus=0A>or RMS). Who's gonna get you t=
he money to pay the rent and buy that=0A>shiny new car?=0A=0ABy debugging o=
ther`s code u can see what`s essentially wrong, what is right, what can be =
done!! Anyway OSS programmer are not debuggers. They dont get error reports=
and debug their previous versions and =0Are-release them under a new 'jilp=
ans' name. All people in the OSS community are rightly credited and they r =
as famous as the tool they have developed or contributed to. They get their=
due share of name and fame and r not unpaid programmers. They get their sh=
are of fame and are paid well. =0A=0AGetting ur shiny new car is about bein=
g able to contribute so much to create an improvisation so that u get ur ca=
r faster than an OSS programmer. Everybody is going to get a car anyway, be=
ing able to do it fast is what is required(unless otherwise). Kernel develo=
pers(debuggers, as u wud call them as) can get themselves shiny new cars fa=
ster than most others. If u can do something radical enough to be called a =
'contribution' send it to the OSS community, u will get ur name-fame and if=
it`s good enough - ur shiny new car. It is ur skill that will get u anywhe=
re!!=0A=0A> Hobbyist programming we all do and enjoy...but in the end,=0A>i=
t's not viable as a full time profession(unless you're as good as =0A>Linus=
=0A>or RMS). =0A=0AOSS programmer are not people in Tirumala Tirupathi Deva=
sthanam who do honorary work - they r very much programmers who program eve=
ry day for their daily bread. Linus and RMS aren`t the only ones who r paid=
, people working on OSS projects are well paid. As u said hobby programmers=
, need not be paid, but will get their due credit. Linus was very much like=
that - he didnt develop an OS because somebody was waiting with keys to a =
shiny new car or to appear in TIME magazine cover, or to counter MS. But th=
at became his profession of releasing kernels and trying pack more punch in=
to his OS.=0A=0A>The one that asks you whetheryou want to report it to Micr=
osoft. Ever =0A>wondered what they =0A>Did with all that data....let me tel=
l you what they do. Right now, =0A>they've collected=0A>several terabytes (=
yes..terabytes) of data from that error reporting=0A>service. And you know =
what they've found? That most crashes comes from=0A>apps not written by Mic=
rosoft. Bad device drives. Bad plug-ins. =0A>Software=0A>that tries to writ=
e to files it doesn't have permission for.=0A=0AWhat r they going to do wit=
h the several TBs of errors resulting due to OS problems? Trying to say Win=
is error-free wud be a big joke!! Linux handles almost all such things u h=
ave mentioned with a simple msg which prevents u from carrying on further t=
han let the whole platform on which all the applications r resting to crash=
and having to do the 'holy' act of restarting the system. =0A=0A>When you =
say "the user can get his job done without hassles in =0A>Linux" ,=0A>what =
exactly do you mean? Tell you what, let's have a race...I'll use >my=0A>Win=
Xp box and you take a distro of your choice. I'll pull out my=0A>digicam, w=
eb cam , USB drive ,portable MP3 player, iPod....let's see=0A>who's able to=
use them first. Or is it unthinkable that Linux users =0A>will=0A>want to =
listen to music and see pictures that they have taken?=0A=0AThe outcome of =
the race will be determined by how well we know our operating systems than =
the OS in itself. If I lose it does not mean Linux is hopeless or vice vers=
a - it will just show that we have not been able to use our OS effectively.=
Well, dont talk abt hardware meant for proprietary Windows that take time=
to get working in Linux with additional plugins!! If ur talking abt Linux/=
Windows compatible hardware I only see myself restarting services and runni=
ng Kudzu and then than restarting the whole system one million times!!=0A=
=0AAnyway we can have a race, maybe I can get my job done before restarting=
ur system, and as I had said not with hardwares which provide windows comp=
atibility CD.=0A=0A> Or is it unthinkable that Linux users will=0A>want to =
listen to music and see pictures that they have taken?=0A=0AHaven`t u heard=
of XMMS with mp3 plugin and the so-many picture seeing and processing tool=
s in Linux?=0A=0A=0A>Well, now you know :-) Microsoft has a deep relationsh=
ip with a lot of=0A>universities. In fact a lot of universities (including =
some of the=0A>Indian IITs, I hear) have full access to Windows Source code=
. In fact,=0A>the recent Windows code leak came from Mainsoft (which runs L=
inux=0A>servers btw :-) )=0A=0AWell universities have them, fine!!What abt =
you and me, the programming community? The Godforsaken code had to be leake=
d and not given out fairly to the programming community. This seems to prov=
e the point.=0A=0A>My original argument was that you don't need access to s=
ource code to =0A>be efficient or to innovate =0A=0AWhen I say innovation I=
very specifically mean what lies beyond the available domain. What can you=
do with Windows if u want to add a feature to it? What can u do with .NET =
if u want to add a functionality to it? Mail Bill gates?? I`m not talking a=
bt implementing what lies within your maximum limits such as .NET dcomunent=
ation or MSDN which might help you add new things. But let`s say u have a n=
ew concept which u might atleast try to implement, u cant even try that in =
MS. MS talks about the dome of St.Paul`s cathedral and says u can do anythi=
ng in it, but I`m talking abt the world that lies outside St.Paul`s dome. Y=
ou r fascinated by the biggest dome, but the argument against MS is that th=
ere is a well-defined limit within which u can 'innovate'. =0A=0AAs an Engi=
neer and a developer access to source code is a must, and as I had clearly =
said in my previous mail - "developing it or using it is absolutely upto th=
e skill level of the engineer or anjaneyar using it. " Maybe u have never n=
eeded it, there are people who need it and who r constantly working on it.=
=0A=0A>Hmm...do you really need access to the source code to type out a=0A>=
OpenOffice document. Or does my mom need access to Photoshop's source=0A>co=
de to touch up a few photos?=0A=0AU r repeatedly trying to compare the skil=
l level of the users to use the code or not. U r mom does not need source c=
ode, but as an Engineer u 'might' want it if u really believe in improvisin=
g. Okay let`s take the example of a person who has a really good thing to i=
mprovise upon, as one of our fellow luggians said - trying to meddle with t=
he lens filter in Adobe photoshop - wud u be able to do it? In the OSS comm=
unity he wud be given his due credit!! But in the MS world his suggestion(e=
rror report) wud be taken and incorporated(not sure) and somebody else take=
s credit and gets name,fame and shiny new cars. =0A=0A>Err....that's why a =
majority of the Fortune 500 companies run Windows =0A>is it? :-) Seriously,=
do back up your statements with benchmarks.=0A=0AWell, I sure presume you =
know that most of them r migrating to Linux and in this process a new field=
called migration technology has emerged. If u have people doing it as a re=
gular professional job, then just imagine the sheer extent to which actual =
migration is happening. Well, in simple terms ur talking abt history and I`=
m talking abt the future.=0A=0A=0A>Ok, the point I'm trying to make here is=
that a debate on Linux vs=0A>Windows is pointless. =0A=0AI shud infact tha=
nk you for the "Are you serious?" thread that u had started. A very good qu=
ality argument from all fellow Luggians has come out which has undoubtedly =
been trying to prove things as they are and not as how you and I percieve i=
t to be. This is not something which you and I can end, it will go on and h=
as been going on for quite a long time, ever since Linus sent his first mai=
l about the OS code which he had developed from Minix. Trying to say that t=
his argument is 'pointless' is comical and conveying the msg that they have=
diff target audience is baseless. You , me, our fellow Luggians and the p=
rogramming community is the target audience. =0A=0A>Windows has a different=
target audience...Linux=0A>has a different target audience. =0A=0AWhat do =
you think? OSs are not tamil/bollywood movies which are made for village su=
bject,city subject,nattammai-panchayath stuff,etc,. They r meant for the wo=
rld. I don`t really understand what u mean to say by the word "target audie=
nce". C`mon wake up!! You, me and whoever reads this mail in their computer=
s are the target audience. =0A=0A> Let's say that Microsoft=0A>suddenly cea=
ses to exist one day....then what happens. Who are you =0A>gonna=0A>target =
next? Apple?=0A>The only thing that=0A>irritates me about the OSS community=
is their perpetual obsession with=0A>Windows and MS.=0A=0AOSS is not again=
st MS company and Bill gates` fortune, it`s against the "MS policies" which=
does not allow a user/programmer to do what he wants. Well, that just sums=
up 'our' OSS policy.=0A=0A=0A>Do understand that Microsoft has a huge bunc=
h of very talented people=0A>who produce some great software. You want to i=
mpress me..do so with=0A>software.=0A=0AI very honestly accept that MS has =
great programmers and also moth eaten company policies!! But be magnanimous=
enough to accept that the OSS programmers are also 'great' programmers and=
not 'debuggers' as u had said. =0A=0A>You want to impress me..do so with=
=0A>software. Make Linux do stuff that Windows cannot do. Make OpenOffice =
=0A>do stuff that would kick MS Office's behind. Make FireFox so good that =
you give the IE team in Redmond sleepless nights. Forget about the=0A>MS-b=
ashing...its just a huge waste of everyone's time.=0A=0AThe point is the OS=
S community impressing the world with quality software which is already doi=
ng the 'kicking' activities as u have mentioned above, or else nobody wud b=
e migrating to Linux and have Linux project test labs which produce amazing=
results. I is only bcos somebody has not been content with the performance=
, a migration to Linux has come out and that has wlays been succesful. Tell=
me one company which has reverse migrated bcos it hasnt found the performa=
nce of Linux/OSS satisfactory!! But as for all the other migrating stories,=
u`ll be hearing it all over!!=0A=0AWe r trying to compare the pros and con=
s of things and not bashing,thrashing,trolling.........Anyway this has defi=
nitely been a good quality argument where newbies have come to know so many=
things!! =0A=0AS.N.Sudharsan,=0AB.E.(Cse), RHCE(RH-9),=0AVelammal engineer=
ing college,=0AChennai.=0A=0AHave a nice smiling day. - S.N.Sudharsan.
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