[huskerlug] Re: GUIs & Knowledge
- From: "Jordan Wilberding" <reter7@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: huskerlug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 12:47:58 -0600
Hello,
How can you say you hope there isn't any computer illiterate people on
this LUG? How can people joining the Linux world get to know how to do
things if LUG's don't even want to except them? Wasn't Linux setup with a
common idea of people helping others? We all started by being computer
illiterate and having to search for answers, and yes I know you will argue
that they can go read a book or README file, but there are some problems
that only experience will solve. Which is why a LUG like this one should
except computer-literate as well as computer-illiterates.
As for your complaints about people who use GUIs and cheat themselves
out of knowledge; there are many reasons why people would choose a GUI. One
reason would be most people don't have time to look at the specific workings
of every little protocol and function that a computer can possess. This
would simply take to long and many people would rather work on what they
want to and improve the certain area they are in and have a general
knowledge of other areas so they have a nice rounded computer education.
Thats just my thoughts anyways.
-Jordan Wilberding
>From: "Joey" Reply-To: huskerlug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To: Subject: [huskerlug] Re:
>GUIs & Knowledge Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:01:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0
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>2001 23:08:55 -0600 (CST) From nitewolf@xxxxxxxxxx Sat Mar 17 21:08:42 2001
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>
>HI all again, First of all I did not mean to be insulting, for whoever may
>of took it that way. I was expression my concern that if you look back
>through all the lug emails, there are SEVERAL questions not answered. I
>answered 2 or 3 of them but got tired of it. (including the pcmcia card
>thing) It does however wonder me, if you are so "elite", why don't you
>answer the questions? I am only a freshman in college and know linux fairly
>well. The reason I brought this up is because I have asked a couple
>questions with no response. This leads me to believe or 2 things, 1) you
>don't know the answers (gui cripples) or 2) you think you're too good to
>answer them.
>
>By the way, I don't really agree with your argument but thats not
>important. If it takes a little "nudge" to get some discussion around here,
>then I am willing to do that. I think it would be really cool if we could
>get a good group goung that is active and knowledgable. Since you
>apparently known so much, why should this be hard? In terms of JR (Who
>seems to be the leader) I was not attacking him specifically. I agree that
>computer illiterates may need a crutch, but than again, this is a lug, and
>I hope there isn't any computer-illiterates here.
>
>PS. I still need help getting glide to work if anyone knows anything about
>that. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Lundstedt" To: Sent:
>Saturday, March 17, 2001 12:24 PM Subject: [huskerlug] GUIs & Knowledge
>
>
> > Greetings all, > I wondered how to respond to a post on "vi or die, and
>certainly no G-U-I". > I've never pretended to be a "3l33t haX0r" I built
>up a healthy hatred of vi in > my undergrad days and when I found emacs, I
>never looked back. I USE > computers. I'm a scientist first, an simply a
>hobbyist as far as linux > goes (although that seems to qualify me to
>sys-admin a VMS, 3 DEC UNIX, a couple > of NT machines and my linux
>workstation, as far as my research group is > concerned, why? Because I've
>picked up alot of knowledge just as a casual user). > > I would agree that
>front-ends rob you of knowledge, but not using a front-end > robs you of
>time. How much is your time worth? I'm with J.R. a healthy balance > of
>both is the way to go. Here's a for instance: I'm using LyX to write my >
>dissertation (for those of you that don't do science-like papers, LyX is a
>LaTeX > front-end [which is a TeX front-end {which is a Postscript
>front-end (which is a > printer driver front-end)}]). I told some collegues
>that I was using LyX and > they said the same thing "then how will you
>learn LaTeX?" I had to respond, > "Why learn LaTeX? Why not learn TeX or
>Postscript? (Yes, I know a person who > did his dissertaion in RAW
>postscript, now that's L33t!) As it happens, LyX is > hiding some settings
>from me that I need to change, so I'm slowly learning LaTeX > so I can
>overide those hidden settings with manual LaTeX calls. BUT, I'm also >
>working on my dissertation in the meantime, while I learn. I thought >
>multitasking was a good thing? > > I'm somewhat disturbed by this stigma
>against GUIs and front-ends. a) Lots of > people spent lots of time and
>effort to create those things. Why not use them? > b) I'm not using linux
>to be cool, or to "learn linux". I'm using it to do > work. I USE it
>because its FREE. I've been stung by this attitude, a cracker > claimed my
>box a couple of years ago, but live and learn. (I've seen l33t Du63s > lose
>there box to crackers too.) I learned a great deal then, but just enough >
>to get out of trouble and get back to work. How can linux go mainstream if
>you > have to learn linux first, and your tools second? There are tons of
>Mac users > who put up with over-priced, inferior products just to avoid a
>learning curve. > There is a leasson to be learned there. Microsoft holds
>the market-share of > desktop machines because of its balance between ease
>of use and access to > low-level controls. > > Lastly, and in direct
>response to Joey, my response to use a webbrowser does not > come for free.
>When I made my address book I had to write the scripts in Perl > that made
>the calls to MySQL, created the html and responded to queries. The >
>creation of the front-end did not USE a front-end (other than emacs, see >
>sentence 2). I learned a lot about SQL, but I ran out of time to goof
>around > with it (and it wasn't furthering my career). The user (who
>happened to be me) > just had to deal with a web-page to access the
>address-book (and thus the > database). If I understand what JR is doing,
>he's creating this app for a > non-hacker, why should THEY have to deal
>with clunky tools? My experience is > that if you ask someone who doesn't
>just love this stuff to deal with clunky > tools, THEY WON'T. So why waste
>your time? > > I'm sorry you're disappointed that we can't answer "the real
>questions". So > far, I can only recall two questions that have come up to
>which we didn't have > an adequate answers to. a) the PC-card (notebook
>ethernet card) question, which > I think was an experience thing. Not all
>of us deal with PC-cards in all > machines, all the time, so there's not a
>lot of experience to draw from in terms > of trouble shooting. b) Shane's
>ISA net-card thing. Not having a good answer > for an ISA problem is spread
>through-out the linux community. ISA is a legacy > thing, and isn't handled
>well on any level. > > Oh well. Maybe I should have let this pass, but I
>think its important for the > linux community to move on. The era of the
>command line only interface is > nearing an end (although it has some
>stunning uses still as my floppy only > firewall will atest). Insulting
>people for wanting a GUI is not productive and > if its knowledge you
>desire, education is the answer, not put-downs. > > > -Carl Lundstedt > UNL
>Dept. of Physics & Astronomy > > > > -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by
>Listar -- > -- Type: text/x-vcard > -- File: clundst.vcf > -- Desc: Card
>for Carl Lundstedt > > >
>
>
>
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