Greetings all, I wondered how to respond to a post on "vi or die, and certainly no G-U-I". I've never pretended to be a "3l33t haX0r" I built up a healthy hatred of vi in my undergrad days and when I found emacs, I never looked back. I USE computers. I'm a scientist first, an simply a hobbyist as far as linux goes (although that seems to qualify me to sys-admin a VMS, 3 DEC UNIX, a couple of NT machines and my linux workstation, as far as my research group is concerned, why? Because I've picked up alot of knowledge just as a casual user). I would agree that front-ends rob you of knowledge, but not using a front-end robs you of time. How much is your time worth? I'm with J.R. a healthy balance of both is the way to go. Here's a for instance: I'm using LyX to write my dissertation (for those of you that don't do science-like papers, LyX is a LaTeX front-end [which is a TeX front-end {which is a Postscript front-end (which is a printer driver front-end)}]). I told some collegues that I was using LyX and they said the same thing "then how will you learn LaTeX?" I had to respond, "Why learn LaTeX? Why not learn TeX or Postscript? (Yes, I know a person who did his dissertaion in RAW postscript, now that's L33t!) As it happens, LyX is hiding some settings from me that I need to change, so I'm slowly learning LaTeX so I can overide those hidden settings with manual LaTeX calls. BUT, I'm also working on my dissertation in the meantime, while I learn. I thought multitasking was a good thing? I'm somewhat disturbed by this stigma against GUIs and front-ends. a) Lots of people spent lots of time and effort to create those things. Why not use them? b) I'm not using linux to be cool, or to "learn linux". I'm using it to do work. I USE it because its FREE. I've been stung by this attitude, a cracker claimed my box a couple of years ago, but live and learn. (I've seen l33t Du63s lose there box to crackers too.) I learned a great deal then, but just enough to get out of trouble and get back to work. How can linux go mainstream if you have to learn linux first, and your tools second? There are tons of Mac users who put up with over-priced, inferior products just to avoid a learning curve. There is a leasson to be learned there. Microsoft holds the market-share of desktop machines because of its balance between ease of use and access to low-level controls. Lastly, and in direct response to Joey, my response to use a webbrowser does not come for free. When I made my address book I had to write the scripts in Perl that made the calls to MySQL, created the html and responded to queries. The creation of the front-end did not USE a front-end (other than emacs, see sentence 2). I learned a lot about SQL, but I ran out of time to goof around with it (and it wasn't furthering my career). The user (who happened to be me) just had to deal with a web-page to access the address-book (and thus the database). If I understand what JR is doing, he's creating this app for a non-hacker, why should THEY have to deal with clunky tools? My experience is that if you ask someone who doesn't just love this stuff to deal with clunky tools, THEY WON'T. So why waste your time? I'm sorry you're disappointed that we can't answer "the real questions". So far, I can only recall two questions that have come up to which we didn't have an adequate answers to. a) the PC-card (notebook ethernet card) question, which I think was an experience thing. Not all of us deal with PC-cards in all machines, all the time, so there's not a lot of experience to draw from in terms of trouble shooting. b) Shane's ISA net-card thing. Not having a good answer for an ISA problem is spread through-out the linux community. ISA is a legacy thing, and isn't handled well on any level. Oh well. Maybe I should have let this pass, but I think its important for the linux community to move on. The era of the command line only interface is nearing an end (although it has some stunning uses still as my floppy only firewall will atest). Insulting people for wanting a GUI is not productive and if its knowledge you desire, education is the answer, not put-downs. -Carl Lundstedt UNL Dept. of Physics & Astronomy -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar -- -- Type: text/x-vcard -- File: clundst.vcf -- Desc: Card for Carl Lundstedt