[HUG ] Re: IMG: Triptych

Guys,

Both RAW and TIFF are file formats.
TIFF is a container format, and can contain many different formats. Loss-lessly compressed formats. Lossy JPEGs. And even RAW.
The controversy here is about the 'raw'-state that is being suggested by the RAW file format name. 
As Austin correctly points out, it isn't as uncooked as the name suggests.
And despite the lack of such an suggestion, a TIFF file can contain data in an equally 'uncooked' state. 


Using RAW files does not magically change the data that are available.
And data can be dumped in many different file formats without a single limitation or problem. (For a project years ago, i have recorded and dumped image data in a WAV sound file. It contained exactly the same image data as the run length loss-lessly compressed BMP-file and TIFF-file i later on in the process converted the data into. The WAV-file then was a RAW file avant la lettre. The data were 'cooked' in the conversion, but all the cooking did was 'synchronize'/'line up' the lines of the image (that was captured line after line). So the BMP and TIFF files did contain raw data too in exactly the way the modern day RAW files contain 'raw' data.)
So it boils down to the question what the software does to the data before it is dumped into a file (RAW or other).
The RAW-format was invented to provide a way to escape/bypass the image processing routines built into all image capture devices. But not all: the true raw 'data' have to be cooked a bit to make them fit a format that a computer can understand. They have to be changed from electrical curents and potentials into data. How much processing is done before data is dumped into a RAW file depends, not only on manufacturer, but also on the 'machine' inside a particular device. 

TIFF files can equally well be used to contain the same data.
And some devices (scanners mostly) do indeed allow to dump the same data in a uncompressed or loss-lessly compressed TIFF file. 

It all depends on the software involved.
Not (!) the file format the data are dumped in.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Rabiner" <mark@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:23 AM
Subject: [HUG ] Re: IMG: Triptych


Reading this thread you'd think  that there was some ongoing controversy
about the legitimacy of Raw files or its practice.

There is NO Raw file controversy
in the real world
outside of today's HUG.
Its the way photography is done by the vast majority of people;
Even tiny point and shoots can't be sold any more without Raw capability.

There is a Raw filter in Photoshop and Lightroom so the file can be opened
in a whole much better interface than a Tiff, psd, jpg, or others.
Opening a shot in this way with a raw filter is like starting from scratch
on the whole shooting of the picture. You can decide which light temperature
to use; and most other variables. Even exposure though if you over expose
you're still in trouble.

One person on the Hasselblad users groups seems to have never heard of it
and its a tidal wave of posts all thing to explain it to him.
It involves practice. Not theory.
That's the problem.


Mark William Rabiner




From: Bob Adler <rgacpa@xxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: "hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: "hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [HUG ] Re: IMG: Triptych


Thank you Stefano.
They were saved as TIFF as they were scanned before Vuescan had the raw
capability.
I'm looking forward to hanging it on the wall.
Best,
Bob

On Mar 17, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Stefano Kovacs <stefanok@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
P.P.S. Bob, I meant to make the same suggestion about colour matching in the three panels. The triptych looks very nice and I am sure that it is great in 
print, irrespective of the format of your scans...


On 18 Mar 2009, at 02:03, Jim Brick wrote:
One thing, LR2 deals with DNG differently than TIFF. This isn't saying that 
you cannot do exactly the same with both, but, for instance, LR color temp
slider gives the 'color temperature value' (in Kelvin) for RAW and DNG. And if you have a photograph taken via tungsten, the slider will be way to the left and tell you that it is, say, 2850K. but for a TIFF, it just gives the slider set at zero (the middle) and you adjust + or -. There are other differences as well but this one is easy to explain. I personally like the actual temperature being given including that the slider is positioned analogically where it is supposed to be, on the scale from 2000 to 50,000. I know, I'm simple and easy 
to please, but when my scans operate within LR or PS in exactly the same
manner as camera RAW files, I like that!
I have a 6x6 tranny that I scanned, on the same scanner, as a TIFF and as a 
DNG. The DNG wins! To LR, it is the same as a RAW file from a camera. You
really don't know that you are working with a scan since everything works the 
same. I like it (I guess you can tell...)!
Now, on the Imacon, the RAW file is a .fff file, but written in TIFF format so 
that programs other than 'FlexColor' can read them. So other than with
Photoshop, you have to change the file extension from .fff to .tif. But as I 
said earlier, it is really obvious that it is a raw file! Ugly!!!

JMHO,

Jim


On Mar 17, 2009, at 7:25 PM, Austin Franklin wrote:

Hi Jim,

I don't know what Vuescan does to the .tiff files it saves (when they call
them "raw", I would hope nothing, but perhaps not?)...but there is
absolutely no reason that a .tiff file can not contain the exact raw image
as captured from the scanner A/D, with no processing (except for calibration similar to PRNU in the digicams). In fact, the Leafscan saves "raw" data as 16 bit .tiffs, which are called "HDR" (High Dynamic Range, since they are 16 
bit/pixel).  But, IME, there is really no need to do that if you get your
setpoints and tonal curves right in the first place.

I don't see the need for a special ".dng" format, when a .tiff can support
exactly the same thing...except to sell a "pro" version of Vuescan...

Regards,

Austin

-----Original Message-----
From: hasselblad-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:hasselblad-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Jim Brick
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:54 PM
To: hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [HUG ] Re: IMG: Triptych


To get a RAW file from a scanner using Vue Scan, you have to buy the
pro version of Vue Scan, then select that the file be written as a DNG
(Digital NeGative) which tells Vue Scan to ignore all of the Vue Scan
pre-sets and just write the 'raw' scanner data to the file. This is a
true raw file in DNG format. It's purpose is actually for re-scanning
the same image but without putting the film into the scanner. You scan
the DNG file, which comes into Vue Scan as if it came from the
scanner, with Vue Scan pre-sets set to the way you want them, and then
get a TIFF or JPEG, or whatever, with the changes that you want. This
presumes that you use Vue Scan as your image processor.

So... Vue Scan DNG is truly RAW scanner data! No firmware or software
tweaks, only the gathering of the bits and putting them into a file in
DNG format.

For me, it's much easier to get the picture that you want via LR or PS
rather than trying learn all of the nuances of a scanner program. I'll
take my digital images RAW!

Jim


On Mar 17, 2009, at 5:16 PM, Austin Franklin wrote:

Hi Franc,

But...as both Marc and I pointed out, there is no such thing as a
standardized "raw" file format, but as I've pointed out, they can be
saved
as TIFFs. And, taking you up on your suggestion, what it appears
from the
Vuescan's manual, is that it saves these "raw" files with a .tif
extension:

"? In the Output tab un-check all the options except for Output >
Raw file
As each image is scanned, files with sequential numbering such as
scan0001.tif,
scan0002.tif, etc. will be created."

"To re-process these raw files:
? Set the Input > Source option to File, and set Input > Files to
point to
the starting file
in the series (eg scan0001.tif)"

So, at least with Vuescan, these "raw" files are saved as TIFFs, and
there
is, obviously, no loss of data with these TIFF files.

Regards,

Austin

-----Original Message-----
From: hasselblad-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:hasselblad-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Franc Flipsen
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 6:10 PM
To: hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [HUG ] Re: IMG: Triptych



I have a epson V700 and a minolta scan multi II and they both save
in raw
format using Viewscan and infact you can save as raw from any
scanner with
viewscan, Maybe you should check it out at www.hamrick.com .
I've also used
it with a polaroid sprintscan 45.  I can get a 48bit multi-pass
scan from
all of these scanners.  Of course they need to be saved as raw
files or you
loose information in conversion to a tiff file format.

Franc


----- Original Message -----
From: "Austin Franklin" <austin.franklin@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 4:48 PM
Subject: [HUG ] Re: IMG: Triptych


Hi Franc,

I think the point he is trying to make is that when you scan or
capture if
you save it in Raw you get what the sensor saw at the time and if
you save
it to a tiff, dng or some other format you discard some of the
data.

Sure, but that is not true with TIFF when talking about a
scanner, which
is
what I was questioning.

tiff
is a lossless format when opened but some of the data (not
needed by the
tiff file format)is stipped off the file before it is saved

Like what data?  If any data is "stripped" that is implementation
dependant.
I have a few scanners that save TIFF, and that is THE raw data
format for
these scanners.  These TIFFs are typically called "HDR" for High
Dynamic
Range.  IOW, they have no setpoints or tonal curves
applied...so the image
you see if you were to open the file up in, say, PS, will be
typically
very
dark...until you apply setpoints and tonal curves to "normalize" it.

...so
the tiff file
does not contain all the data the sensor saw but a raw file does
contain all
the data the sensor saw and nothing else, not even a color
space profile.

Well, that's not necessarily true.  At least with the scanners I've
designed
and the ones I have.  To save a "raw" file with any of my
scanners, you
save
it as a TIFF file, with no setpoints or tonal curves set.  TIFF
does not
define a "color space profile".

What scanner do you have that saves files as "raw" and it's not
HDR or
TIFF?

Regards,

Austin



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