[HUG ] Re: IMG: Triptych

Reading this thread you'd think  that there was some ongoing controversy
about the legitimacy of Raw files or its practice.

There is NO Raw file controversy
in the real world
outside of today's HUG.
Its the way photography is done by the vast majority of people;
Even tiny point and shoots can't be sold any more without Raw capability.

There is a Raw filter in Photoshop and Lightroom so the file can be opened
in a whole much better interface than a Tiff, psd, jpg, or others.
Opening a shot in this way with a raw filter is like starting from scratch
on the whole shooting of the picture. You can decide which light temperature
to use; and most other variables. Even exposure though if you over expose
you're still in trouble.

One person on the Hasselblad users groups seems to have never heard of it
and its a tidal wave of posts all thing to explain it to him.
It involves practice. Not theory.
That's the problem.


Mark William Rabiner



> From: Bob Adler <rgacpa@xxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: "hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
> To: "hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [HUG ] Re: IMG: Triptych
> 
> 
> Thank you Stefano.
> They were saved as TIFF as they were scanned before Vuescan had the raw
> capability. 
> I'm looking forward to hanging it on the wall.
> Best,
> Bob
> 
> On Mar 17, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Stefano Kovacs <stefanok@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> P.P.S. Bob, I meant to make the same suggestion about colour matching in the
> three  panels. The triptych looks very nice and I am sure that it is great in
> print, irrespective of the format of your scans...
> 
> 
> On 18 Mar 2009, at 02:03, Jim Brick wrote:
> 
> One thing, LR2 deals with DNG differently than TIFF. This isn't saying that
> you cannot do exactly the same with both, but, for instance, LR color temp
> slider gives the 'color temperature value' (in Kelvin) for RAW and DNG. And if
> you have a photograph taken via tungsten, the slider will be way to the left
> and tell you that it is, say, 2850K. but for a TIFF, it just gives the slider
> set at zero (the middle) and you adjust + or -. There are other differences as
> well but this one is easy to explain. I personally like the actual temperature
> being given including that the slider is positioned analogically where it is
> supposed to be, on the scale from 2000 to 50,000. I know, I'm simple and easy
> to please, but when my scans operate within LR or PS in exactly the same
> manner as camera RAW files, I like that!
> 
> I have a 6x6 tranny that I scanned, on the same scanner, as a TIFF and as a
> DNG. The DNG wins! To LR, it is the same as a RAW file from a camera. You
> really don't know that you are working with a scan since everything works the
> same. I like it (I guess you can tell...)!
> 
> Now, on the Imacon, the RAW file is a .fff file, but written in TIFF format so
> that programs other than 'FlexColor' can read them. So other than with
> Photoshop, you have to change the file extension from .fff to .tif.  But as I
> said earlier, it is really obvious that it is a raw file! Ugly!!!
> 
> JMHO,
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> On Mar 17, 2009, at 7:25 PM, Austin Franklin wrote:
> 
> Hi Jim,
> 
> I don't know what Vuescan does to the .tiff files it saves (when they call
> them "raw", I would hope nothing, but perhaps not?)...but there is
> absolutely no reason that a .tiff file can not contain the exact raw image
> as captured from the scanner A/D, with no processing (except for calibration
> similar to PRNU in the digicams).  In fact, the Leafscan saves "raw" data as
> 16 bit .tiffs, which are called "HDR" (High Dynamic Range, since they are 16
> bit/pixel).  But, IME, there is really no need to do that if you get your
> setpoints and tonal curves right in the first place.
> 
> I don't see the need for a special ".dng" format, when a .tiff can support
> exactly the same thing...except to sell a "pro" version of Vuescan...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Austin
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hasselblad-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:hasselblad-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Jim Brick
> Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:54 PM
> To: hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [HUG ] Re: IMG: Triptych
> 
> 
> To get a RAW file from a scanner using Vue Scan, you have to buy the
> pro version of Vue Scan, then select that the file be written as a DNG
> (Digital NeGative) which tells Vue Scan to ignore all of the Vue Scan
> pre-sets and just write the 'raw' scanner data to the file. This is a
> true raw file in DNG format. It's purpose is actually for re-scanning
> the same image but without putting the film into the scanner. You scan
> the DNG file, which comes into Vue Scan as if it came from the
> scanner, with Vue Scan pre-sets set to the way you want them, and then
> get a TIFF or JPEG, or whatever, with the changes that you want. This
> presumes that you use Vue Scan as your image processor.
> 
> So... Vue Scan DNG is truly RAW scanner data! No firmware or software
> tweaks, only the gathering of the bits and putting them into a file in
> DNG format.
> 
> For me, it's much easier to get the picture that you want via LR or PS
> rather than trying learn all of the nuances of a scanner program. I'll
> take my digital images RAW!
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> On Mar 17, 2009, at 5:16 PM, Austin Franklin wrote:
> 
> Hi Franc,
> 
> But...as both Marc and I pointed out, there is no such thing as a
> standardized "raw" file format, but as I've pointed out, they can be
> saved
> as TIFFs. And, taking you up on your suggestion, what it appears
> from the
> Vuescan's manual, is that it saves these "raw" files with a .tif
> extension:
> 
> "? In the Output tab un-check all the options except for Output >
> Raw file
> As each image is scanned, files with sequential numbering such as
> scan0001.tif,
> scan0002.tif, etc. will be created."
> 
> "To re-process these raw files:
> ? Set the Input > Source option to File, and set Input > Files to
> point to
> the starting file
> in the series (eg scan0001.tif)"
> 
> So, at least with Vuescan, these "raw" files are saved as TIFFs, and
> there
> is, obviously, no loss of data with these TIFF files.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Austin
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hasselblad-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:hasselblad-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Franc Flipsen
> Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 6:10 PM
> To: hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [HUG ] Re: IMG: Triptych
> 
> 
> 
> I have a epson V700 and a minolta scan multi II and they both save
> in raw
> format using Viewscan and infact you can save as raw from any
> scanner with
> viewscan, Maybe you should check it out at www.hamrick.com .
> I've also used
> it with a polaroid sprintscan 45.  I can get a 48bit multi-pass
> scan from
> all of these scanners.  Of course they need to be saved as raw
> files or you
> loose information in conversion to a tiff file format.
> 
> Franc
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Austin Franklin" <austin.franklin@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <hasselblad@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 4:48 PM
> Subject: [HUG ] Re: IMG: Triptych
> 
> 
> Hi Franc,
> 
> I think the point he is trying to make is that when you scan or
> capture if
> you save it in Raw you get what the sensor saw at the time and if
> you save
> it to a tiff, dng or some other format you discard some of the
> data.
> 
> Sure, but that is not true with TIFF when talking about a
> scanner, which
> is
> what I was questioning.
> 
> tiff
> is a lossless format when opened but some of the data (not
> needed by the
> tiff file format)is stipped off the file before it is saved
> 
> Like what data?  If any data is "stripped" that is implementation
> dependant.
> I have a few scanners that save TIFF, and that is THE raw data
> format for
> these scanners.  These TIFFs are typically called "HDR" for High
> Dynamic
> Range.  IOW, they have no setpoints or tonal curves
> applied...so the image
> you see if you were to open the file up in, say, PS, will be
> typically
> very
> dark...until you apply setpoints and tonal curves to "normalize" it.
> 
> ...so
> the tiff file
> does not contain all the data the sensor saw but a raw file does
> contain all
> the data the sensor saw and nothing else, not even a color
> space profile.
> 
> Well, that's not necessarily true.  At least with the scanners I've
> designed
> and the ones I have.  To save a "raw" file with any of my
> scanners, you
> save
> it as a TIFF file, with no setpoints or tonal curves set.  TIFF
> does not
> define a "color space profile".
> 
> What scanner do you have that saves files as "raw" and it's not
> HDR or
> TIFF?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Austin
> 
> 
> 
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