Timothy Brown wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Jorge G. Mare (a.k.a. Koki) wrote:Michael Phipps wrote:Jorge G. Mare (a.k.a. Koki) wrote:Timothy Brown wrote:As for attracting developers, I think they are less impressioned by flashy GUIs and more on a technical basis of what Haiku has the potential to offer them over other operating systems. In other words, developers don't need a demo CD, they are very much in user land.Right. And that's why Haiku has so many developers?Please, let's be civil here. There is nothing in this but sarcasm, and fairly pointless sarcasm, at that.I think it does make a point, and a valid one.It does make a point, and it is valid to the point that Haiku doesn't have a huge number of developers, but that doesn't mean your argument is correct. There are many reasons why Haiku doesn't have a huge pool of developers, but I think your argument that developers want a demo CD (based upon your rebuttal of my comments) account for a very very small number.
You are trying to rebut a claim that I never made. Nowhere did I say that a demo CD is a solve it all panacea for shortage of devs, or that the lack of one is the only cause for having a small pool of devs.
I just think that every bit counts, and was trying to point out that a demo with some additional content can be more useful than just a plain build from the repo.
Linux and 3 different BSD's have lots of developers. They sure aren't flashy.Where did I said anything about being flashy? If you and the gentleman had read my emails carefully, you would understand that I was not talking about making demos flashier with a nice GUI, but more effective as a demo tool and useful. Please, point me to any of me emails in this thread where I suggest anything about being flashy, and then I will take your rebuttal as being valid in that context.You are right. I shouldn't have used the word flashy. Please ignore the word. I think you also missed my point though. My point was that Haiku is not ready to be manipulated to be "more effective as a demo tool and useful". That isn't to say it never will be, and I am certainly not saying we shouldn't be planning it now, I think this discussion is a positive, not a negative, so please don't misunderstand me. My only point was that I _predict_ this issue will be less important that the noise generated on the mailing list has given it credit.
Why is it noise? You may not know it, but there are actually community driven initiatives pursuing this sort of demo material that is more enticing to particular audiences, and making trying to make it clear for these initiatives what can and cannot be done is a legitimate issue, not just noise.
The problem is convincing the target market that Haiku is viable, successful and useful. If the target market is developers, well, wouldn't developers, by definition, know how to sell to developers?That's an oversimplification. Being a consumer does not necessarily make you a person with knowledge on how to market to consumers. Or, if you prefer an example that as a developer you can relate to, GUIs are designed for end users, but that does not make end users the most knowledgeable about how to design and create a good GUI. Having said that, if Haiku takes the position that demos are useless and prefers that non-devs do not pursue this sort of promotional tools, then they should say so loud and clear, so that people who may have an interest in contributing in this area don't waste their time and effort in something that in the end may not be appreciated. Cheers, KokiI was not trying to say that "demos are useless", nor am I trying to discourage their use.
You said, and I quote: "In other words, developers don't need a demo CD, they are very much in user land." Can you explain how that does not mean that demos are useless in the context of this specific discussion (which was about handing out demos to devs at conferences, etc.).
I just want to err on the side of caution. Since the Haiku development community is small (as you keep pointing out), I don't want potential developers to be put off before they even get involved (as I'm sure you are aware, humans are fickle and a prejudice from one bad experience can last a lifetime). I personally would prefer the developers stay unaware for a while until Haiku is in a better position to attract the developers in the correct way.
I think this fear of putting devs off from a first negative reaction is totally unfounded. Developers do know that code in pre-alpha or even alpha state has bugs and missing functionality, so I don't know where this fear comes from. If you were so fearful, then you should not make HDD and VMWare images available for download, but they are there and nobody complains or goes "Oh my God! What are we going to do if it crashes on someone using those images?".
All that keeping developers unaware of Haiku does is perpetuate your lack of developers.
To sum up and get back on topic, I think this discussion is important, and I support demo CD makers having an easier time of it than distro's, but I also think there should be limits and controls.
The guidelines for demo CDs have been added now, and I think that's a good start in the right direction.