[openbeos] Re: Tracker icons

> So... a couple of new widgets and a couple of new drivers. I guess we don't 
> have a whole lot of competition! :-) Seriously - Axel is right - not a whole 
> lot of really new and interesting stuff has been done. 

That not a whole lot HAS been done doesn't mean that there isn't
anything that NEEDS to be done. But I admit that it's more at
application than at OS level. However, given that they do have a
symbiotic relationship (see Windows), I think it's fair to say that
the apps won't happen unless the OS provides a decent technical
foundation, PLUS is marketed properly.

> Of course this is true but I don't see where it has anything to
> do with the key issue - start R2 now or when R1 is done.

They key issue is that not doing anything on R2 now makes you lose
even more time. But you may (rightly?) argue that there is nothing
you can lose anymore. The question is if there are (sufficient) people
out there to listen (read: to gain), and that may not be the case
either.

> That's the craziest assertion that you have ever made! Least consistant GUI? 

Absolutely. Most apps use their own icons. You don't know if it's
CTRL or ALT-[key]. No consistency in the preferences
dialogs/controls. Then shortcomings regarding user input widgets. No
consistent help system. Often bad or incongruent keyboard control.
All that should IMHO be established/determined by the OS, not the
application.

That Windows isn't that great either is clear - no question about
that. 

> Think about how many app developers left when Be tanked. Developers can and 
> will live with a whole lot of warts. What they won't live with is 
> organizational instability - knowing that the OS that you are writing for 
> will 
> still be available next week is a good thing.

Developers won't by and large live without people using and paying
for their apps. They sit between the OS (owners) and the end user,
and to the end user all that matters is that the app gets the job
done quickly and efficiently, plus the obvious psychological factors.
;)

> Yes, to a degree. But because we are free from commercial requirements (like 
> turning a profit, for example), we can make longer term plans. 

That is great indeed, but what's the point if you at some stage
don't have a market anymore? I may be wrong, but I think you are
deluding yourself if you believe that the OS can survive without a
decent scope of commercial applications. 

> IF you have a plan that will help us release R2 in the same
> timeframe that we could do R1 today, I would love to here it.

Look, I come from the marketing and management side of things, but
this is exactly where you don't want or appreciate input. As I
alluded to in my last point, the whole thing about building momentum
(read: getting end users and developers interested and involved) is
about communication. That's the crucial link. And again, the CONTENT
of the communication needs to be of immediate relevance to both
developers and end users, whether R1 is ready or not. In fact, given
that you have nothing to lose, I would redo the entire
communication (marcomm) system around Haiku. This, however, can only
be done if the developers cooperate, otherwise the marcomm people
have nothing but hot air to communicate.

> The app developers need something to write for, period. R1 is that base that 
> they need. 

Well, as R1==R5, they can pretty much use R5, not so?

> But I can't really justify to a lot of people that they should 
> switch. 

I take the point about "staying under the radar".

> The apps aren't there. 

Apps will only come with momentum, and THAT the OS has to build, not
the apps. Unless they are killer apps, which once existed on BeOS
but aren't developed anymore.

> The ultimate cool new features aren't there. 

What keeps anyone from writing a modular 'one-stop' input filter app,
starting with bookmarks, extending it to email, contact/address
lists, and whatever else there is that is OS/App dependent and
cannot be used just like a JPG of MP3 file?

> For one simple reason. People hours. All of the developers are working on R1. 
> If more developers come along, they will work on R1, too. Is it fair to lock 
> Axeld in the basement and make him code R1 stuff and let Joe Noob develop 
> stuff 
> for R2 (the fun stuff)? 

My perception is that if GE/R2 had something really HOT to offer,
while Haiku communicates the progress of R1 more broadly and
effectively, I am sure more developers would come, especially if
there are apps like a neat data migration or something else that
doesn't exist elsewhere.

> Poor fool that Linus is, he seems to think that things are going pretty well 
> with FOSS. Others will build their own trading systems and value. That would 
> be 
> a good part of the reason to use an MIT instead of GPL license. It encourages 
> just that.

It does indeed, but that's technical. It's "marketing" that "sells"
stuff in the end, not features. Even in a FOSS environment. However,
it seems that those that make up the FOSS environment are stern
opposers of what one would call "marketing". It shows, BTW.

> Sure. But I haven't seen any compelling evidence that doing any
> of the things that you have suggested will get us to that point. 

Opera Software. I don't think I need to say more. 

> But wouldn't EVERY mail client have to support it for it to be useful? 

Merits or not, HTML-formatted email to started with ONE mail client.
Now all have it. But if you keep it on BeOS, then there is yet
another thing that you can tout as being innovative, saving BeOS
users from wasting time on replies that are unwarranted.

> Inventing a standard is a very tough business.

Indeed.
  
> All of which take a whole lot of time. And should be discussed in detail on 
> GE. 
> :-)

Where it leads to nowhere fast. Data migration and a 'no reply
necessary' feature aren't difficult. Someone just needs to add them.
 
> So you think that if we told everyone "well, we won't have anything untill 
> 2008 
> or 2009, but it will be WAY cooler than what you have now" we would have some 
> massive influx of new users?

No. But that wasn't the issue. The issue still is that GE - because
of your intent - is not getting anywhere. There is no baton to hand
over to R2 once R1 is done. You're sitting there with a forest or
two. And while it's all loose and unstructured, you won't find
resources available to do specific tasks. Catch 22.
 
> Axel and I (and others) also have time, money and brain to
> respond. Does that, IYHO, set us on equal ground?

Makes 3 of us, then. :))

> Oh. I see. We aren't HOLISTIC. Guys - THAT'S what the problem is. It isn't 
> time, it isn't bugs. It's a lack of seeing the whole picture. Now I get it. 
> <shakes his head>

You jumped onto something that didn't require jumping on. I am sure
you do everything to the best of your perceived ability, and I
applaud that. Doesn't guarantee anything, though. And all I am doing
is providing a different perspective based on what I have been doing
for keeps for the last 10 years. I don't pretend to know it all, but
in this market I know what works and what doesn't. Take it as you
like.


> A *commercial* failure. Just like Be. Let me point out to you that Be's 
> failure 
> was a lack of focus. 5 focus shifts in 5 years, or something similar to that. 
> What conclusions can you draw from that?

None, actually, because I don't know what or who caused the focus
shifts, so I won't comment.

Helmar

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