[openbeos] Re: Tracker icons
- From: André Braga <meianoite@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: openbeos@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:26:13 -0300
2005/7/24, Helmar Rudolph <news@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> Thanks for all the "in-the-box" replies. I do appreciate your input,
> but there are a few things you don't seem to be getting. Correct me
> if I'm wrong, but:
Let me begin by sayin that YOU ARE WRONG.
> * by the time R1 as an R5 clone comes out, it will be outdated -
> glorious as the effort has been and will continue to be. You
> know that, I know that, everybody knows that.
Outdated as in comparison to what? Objectively speaking, apart from
hardware support and a native Java implementation, what is in the
OPERATING SYSTEM that's so unpleasing to you?
> * Consequently, to only _START_ coding R2 after an R1 release is
> stupid and short-sighted, because already being about 7 years
> behind, you don't really have a chance of ever catching up.
I guess you're volunteering to do some coding, then. Or to hire
full-time programmers. Because as I understand it, the other people
are BUSY, CODING R1 that is, in their UNPAID, FREE time.
> The only upside here is that you have an opportunity to learn
> from the mistakes others have made. However, the "in-the-box"
> thinking and [insert popular OS of choice here]-copycat
> approach doesn't help at all in making Haiku stand out.
Rotulating people won't make you look any better. And as far as I can
tell, Be, Inc was never ashamed of admitting being inspired on the
best features of by-then available OSs, and that has never precluded
any BeOS-unique innovations from happening.
*NO* consumer OS today has implemented to any significant extent the
features which made BeOS unique. This, by itself, is to our advantage.
I could enumerate a myriad other reasons why I believe Haiku will
stand, but I'm afraid they'd be too simplistic in the eyes of someone
as open-minded, whole-brain-thinker as you. [/flamebait]
> * You know how long R1 has been in the making. Imagine R2 taking
> similarly long, especially as chances are that you cannot
> count on programmers who would love to do R2 stuff now, but
> who are discouraged by the 'talk-shop' nature of GE.
Unless you can name those people, that's sheer speculation.
> * Every software company I have worked for works on several
> items in parallel, knowing full well that some won't make the
> cut for the next release, but by the time the next release is
> effected, they don't have to start from scratch but are
> probably already half-way there.
I guess you fail to appreciate the difference between a for-profit
software company and a open-source project not financially-backed by
ANYONE.
> * Michael wrote: "That decision is *far* better left deferred
> until it needs to be made, when all of the ideas are on the
> table in a clear and coherent fashion."
>
> The issue I have is that there is no structure that actually
> leads to the group (or whoever) saying: "guys, by [insert date
> here] we need to cut of the talk, summarise the content,
> evaluate it, and then decide on the path forward for R2." The
> very last thing you would want is start that process only once
> R1 has been released.
I was never aware that we have deadlines to keep otherwise we might
get fired. Au contraire, people are dedicating this project their FREE
TIME.
> * He continues: "But in the same way, in a corporation, you
> wouldn't want the marketing people to start coding the
> application, it would be crazy to start pulling people off of
> coding R1 to play on R2."
>
> This is a typical black-white 'in-the-box' reply.
No, it's about skills. Unless, of course, you have unspoken coding
abilities; in which case I kindly ask you to join the project as a
coder. Or unspoken interface design abilities, and then I'd kindly ask
you to join the project as an artist.
> Remember,
> it's the marketing people who ensure that the product sells,
Haiku is a non-profit organization.
> that customers are kept happy
As there's still no finished product, talking about customers,
potential markets, "switchers", niches etc, is far-fetched. We have
hopes, of course, but last time I checked we had no resources to hire
a research firm and have them evaluate or potential markets.
> even if bug fixes/new features
> aren't furnished in a timely fashion, that eventually pay
> YOUR (the developers') bills.
I believe you're offering us some money, then? Awesome!
> So step outside the box and
> bring the two together. They can't do without each other, so
> why treat them separately?
Because this is a small, unpaid team. If you are in position to make
this change in any way, by all means, DO.
> Also, it's in-the-box to consider your current universe
> static.
I believe the roles are a bit reversed here. In "your current
universe", whatever goes against your mindset is either short-sighted
or narrow-minded. In "our current universes", we'd like to build the
best OS we can given the resources we have. Our universe depend
directly on these resources. As such, it can only be as dynamic as
resources permit.
Thankfully, our talent pool is immense. In the other hand, our time
pool is sub-optimal to say the least. Our money pool is dysmal. If you
can do anything to change this situation, please, DO.
> Ever contemplated the notion that you may attract new
> developers if you took a different approach to GE/R2,
Care to suggest any? A feasible one given our current restraints,
please. Either that or do something to change such restraints.
> and
> also if you added a bit of 'marketing flair' to Haiku?
Who is going to market an unfinished (as of yet) product? Last time I
heard NO marketing company is exactly fond of marketing so-called
vapourware. As far as the general public is concerned, unless a
product is SHIPPING, it's vapour.
> But it
> seems that developers love shooting down or ignoring the
> people who pay their bills.
This can well be the case indeed if we eventually find out we have
passionate developers struggling to sneak in a few hundred more lines
of code during their PAID TIME into Hauku's repositories!
If their bosses ever find out they're wasting precious paid time to a
not-for-profit open-source project aiming to recreate a full-fleged
desktop operating system in a world already crowded by Mac OS, Windows
and Linux... *shivers*
> Trust me, been through that with
> Geoworks, Opera, Sonork and now Qunu. As Haiku falls into the
> same type of category (niche product up against major
> competition), your marketing has to be top notch, and so has
> your marketing-developer relations.
It's a slightly different category which entails the free time,
open-source yadda yadda stuff you seem to ignore.
> * Czeslaw wrote: "An open discussion forum, or "talk shop" as
> you label it derisively, is a valuable thing in and of
> itself."
>
> Well, not until it leads to something, unless decisions are
> made in a timeous fashion, and then acted upon. Otherwise
> you're just like politicians.
I like to see us more like armchair philosophers or sociologists or
just plain Joe Sixpack kinds who enjoy sitting around a table in a pub
after work ("TGIF!" and whatnot) and discuss whatever fancies *the
group*.
> "The GE mailing list seems to be open, democratic, inclusive,
> and non-judgmental, which are precisely the characteristics
> that any successful "brainstorming" venue must possess."
>
> I never questioned that. But what you seem to miss here is
> that brainstorming sessions are of high-energy, everything
> allowed, and __most importantly__ limited time. At the end
> of the brainstorming session you bring together all the ideas
> thrown out, prioritize them and then act on it.
IN DUE TIME. I hope you understand that now. In case you don't, please
re-read this message until you do.
> GE has been
> talking for years. It would be far more productive to have
> separate issues up for 'brainstorming', a deadline and then a
> democratic (if you like) decision as to how to implement or
> not the issue.
Your statement is correct in the sense that it would be indeed more
productive IF WE HAD THE RESOURCES to commit ourselves to these
activities BEFORE R1 is done.
> The advantage is that over time you have
> closed units of 'tasks' that you can then evaluate and
> prioritize against each other when R1 is released. You would
> gain months with that - months that you cannot waste (at
> least not in a commmercial environment) especially if you
> just released a copy of a 7yr-old system.
What is it that you find so disgusting in a 7yr-old system? Other than
HW support and Java, I find it *so rare* to have anyone actually
complaining about R5! Unless you're talking about eye candy here. And
in case you didn't notice, Haiku's app_server will support themes, and
this time there will be actual documentation, if not full-fledged
tools provided by Haiku itself, to build very rich visual themes.
> * "It is impossible for anyone who is not a seer or
> fortune-teller to possess conclusive evidence in support of
> the truth of this forward-looking claim. This must be either
> hyperbole or provocation, neither of which has much of a
> place in civil, rational discourse."
>
> Maybe I am a seer. Maybe I am not.
You're not. Period.
> 'Impossible' is a creation
> of your personal reality, which I don't subscribe to.
[expletive].
> Provocation, btw, does indeed have a place in civil, rational
> discourse, especially if those discussing seem to be doing it
> for the sake of it, and not because they want to complete
> certain items/topics/features.
I'm sorry, I'm a little lost here: since when you're the one who have
the final saying on what we should or should not do??
> If GE is just meant to be a talk-shop, then so be it, but
> then a different entity needs to be set up that ensures that
> by the time R1 is released, not only does a plan of action
> exists for R2, but that that the development process is -to
> the best ability possible- already under way.
I believe you're once more volunteering yourself to set up such
workgroup/workplace, right?
> "I think that it might be too soon to expect action on
> proposals advanced in GE."
>
> Really? I don't know what kind of work you do, but I haven't
> come across one where you can talk for 2 years and not come
> to a conclusion on at least some items.
If you're so blind not to see what the GE list was meant to accomplish...
> "Again, unless you have privileged access to knowledge of the
> future that is not shared by any other human being, you are
> not in an epistemic position to make this claim with any
> degree of plausibility whatsoever. "
>
> Mind venturing back to ancient Egypt for a moment? What do
> you think the hairy barbarians who lived there at the time when
> the pyramids were built and when people far more advanced
> then them came and brought us all the knowledge about sacred
> geometry, the universe, technology, etc. etc. They probably
> said: "Unless you have privileged access to knowledge of the
> future that is not shared by any other human being, you are
> not in an epistemic position to make this claim with any
> degree of plausibility whatsoever."
Now that's a pristine example of trying to use some horrific analogy
to disqualify solid criticism.
> And what happens if you continuously hit on ignorance and
> simple/closed-mindedness?
And what happens when someone in the proverbial peanut gallery start
venting his vitriol because he or she disproves something he or she
doesn't really understand?
> You leave people to their own
> devices and move on. You cannot force anyone to change - that
> must come from inside. But if you (even if only
> subconsciously) refuse to get out of your box, how can you
> progress?
Now that's classic "someone not abiding by his/her own worlds"...
> How can you even entertain the thought of becoming
> successful in a market where nobody gives a rat's arse on the
> technical advantages of an operating system (see the success
> of MS Windows and even Linux), and where what you are working
> on is - at least on the surface (that the end user sees) - is
> just like Windows 95.
I can live with that. I can't force people not to be ignorant, can I?
> Long story short: I don't gain anything by posting here. I don't
> claim to be able to predict the future - although in my incarnation
> as the PalmTop Reader in Geoworks' days I was rather accurate. ;) Same
> with Opera. Same with Sonork.
Were those companies were any more successful while you were with them?
> So perhaps, even for a brief moment,
> entertain the tought that I know something that you don't. Not only
> because I have been in this business for a very long time, but
> because I have a skillset different from yours. Feel free to read up
> on it at http://www.helmar.org
We appreciate your good intentions but unfortunately this project
desperately needs people with "our" skillset NOW, and hopefully in the
near future we'll be able to welcome the aid of people who happen to
have "your" skillset.
> And in case it still hasn't sunk in: keep GE a talk-shop and
> postpone any kind of decision until the release of R1, and chances
> are that there won't be an R2 - at least not one that matters and
> that goes beyond an item of curiosity.
I wonder if that's what people told Gauss when he started developing Set Theory.
> Time has the funny habit of changing things - including people. It
> would be foolish to believe that the people who currently work on R1
> will also be available to work on R2.
I can assure you the developers are not the ones poisoning the well here.
> If you don't nurture a new
> generation of programmers who can and will have to carry the R1 torch,
> then you'll be dead in the water - at least in a commercial sense.
We hope tha the new generation of programmers will come because
they're inclined to be part of a new, fresh, exciting project; not
because of market drive.
> However, if you all do this to satisfy your own egotistical needs
> and desires, then just go ahead.
Our own EGOTISTICAL needs and desires?! [expletive]!!!
FREE TIME is being dedicated here! How can things get any more
altruistical than this?!?!
> Maybe I was mistaken in the belief
> that the Haiku project's long-term aim was to provide us with a more
> efficient computing experience.
You're mistaken in having this urge to market an unfinished project.
Hold your horses! I'm almost believing you're so desperate to turn
Haiku into some cash cow that you completely fail to see the point of
this project as a whole and GE in particular! Is it all about money
and consumers and markets? Are your words just sugar coating on top of
"hurry up, give me something I can sell"?!
I really hope you're not that kind of person!!
> Helmar (completely unapologetic for being able to make use of both
> parts of his brain :-) )
Don't you dare insulting people like that EVER again. And don't come
with some sort of "you don't get it, that was not my intention" talk.
Be very careful with the way you compare yourself to other people.
--
"A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God"
-Alan J. Perlis
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