[haiku-development] Re: Minimize button

2011/9/13 Matt Madia <mattmadia@xxxxxxxxx>

>
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2011, Kit <kervas@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> ...
>
> Please Jorge, don't force us to waste time (again). Leave quietly.
>
> http://www.freelists.org/post/haiku-development/Banning-Jorge-G-Mare,30
>
>
> http://www.freelists.org/post/haiku-commits/r39105-haikutrunksrcappsshowimage,31
>
> http://www.freelists.org/post/haiku-development/Banning-Jorge,32
>
> > Cheers,
> > -Kit



Well, this thread is starting to get long (17 posts as I am sending this).
My following reply is longer than I expected it to be, but I hope it helps
to wrap up this discussion (or at least, get a useful new direction)

In 4 Points:

- Let's Kill this Discussion...
- ...But Let's Keep it Alive
- About Future Features
- on Jorge Mare


** Current Status*
  As I said in my first message, the software currently works as designed.
I do not think we should not spend any more time discussing this in this
mailing list, as it detracts from more pressing issues and functionalities
for R1.
_I agree with Axel that the best solution currently is to add an animation
of the window towards the Deskbar._



** Discussion for Future (Do Keep Discussion Alive)*
  However, I believe that we should not "close our ears" to discussion about
this subject[1]. But instead, this should be discussed as something for R2.
In other words, this should be a discussion for Glass Elevator (if it still
exists).

For example, I do agree with Stephan that the intended workflow for the
BeOS/Haiku is not evident for newcomers anymore.
We should remember that back when Be Inc. started up, the BeOS workflow was
very similar to the then-MacOS workflow.
It had widgets on alternate sides of the title bar (just like MacOS), did
not have the behavior of maximizing, it instead had "zooming" (just like
MacOS), and you used to double click to hide the window (just like MacOS).
Do not forget the strong influence that the pre-OS X interface had on the
BeOS. The BeOS was once intended to be a migration route for MacOS users.

But nowadays, Apple has changed the workflow in many ways, sometimes
importing behaviors from Windows, and other times making up new things.
Heck, Lion (Mac OS X 10.7) now actually supports full screen apps.

And unfortunately, there is currently no guide explaining or suggesting
Haiku's current workflow. At most, maybe some of the videos that Humdinger
mentions, but as far as I can see, there is nothing official. That means
nobody coming from another OS gets the easy transition anymore.


Even though Stephan admitted that minimizing to Deskbar is a hidden feature,
it actually is a very, very common piece of workflow in every other
current operating system (like Axel also said).

Clearly, the Haiku interface is not as intuitive to everyone as we sometimes
think it is, given the many such enhancement requests we get every now and
then.

We should not get stuck in a mindset of "this is the way it was, so this is
how it should always be".



There are other reasons to revisit the concept of hiding or minimizing. For
instance, double clicking is sometimes a troublesome feature for
newcomers[2], and it is also an issue for accesibility. Such an important
feature should have a more visible alternate way of working.

But again, I am disgressing. This discussion should exist, but let's look
for a place to put suggested features that could be implemented medium term
to long term.




** Glass Elevator Proposal*
Unfortunately, currently it seems most activity and discussions relating to
R2 and Glass Elevator have been in hibernation for a couple of years
already[3][4][5][6][7].


Matt, if this is your area, would you consider opening up a mailing list for
Glass Elevator on freelists, where all of the other current mailing lists
reside?

There is nothing appropriate currently, from what I can see here:
[ http://www.freelists.org/cgi-bin/search?search=haiku ]
If you do, perhaps it should be named something like "Future Releases" or
"Suggestions" instead of R2 or GE, if for the sake of newcomers. Thanks.



** on Jorge Mare*
On another subject. Matt, you quote me, and then talk about Jorge Mare. [8]
I do not know how he fits into this discussion, and I hope you are not
trying to imply that in some way I am trying to create a schism like
happened with him. Or that I am impersonating him or vice-versa.

I hope you are not trying to make use of his name to point out things that
are negative or wrong with Haiku or this discussion. It is bothersome if
that was your intention.

While I do not know him face to face, I have chatted with him, and he
clearly is not a bad person.

However, I am aware that, to this day, just talking about him raises the
blood pressure of several people here.
In that respect, I agree that it was healthier for everyone involved that he
leave the project.

In my personal opinion, the whole thing was blown out of proportion, and it
all basically came down to lack of good communication.
It was just a bad case of this (developers vs. designers):

[ http://alextoul.posterous.com/the-war-between-developers-designers-project]


That, plus the fact that Jorge unfortunately often almost went into
Tourette's mode after the project managers rejected some of his
suggestions.[9]

But while Jorge was on board, no one can deny the many contributions he made
_in his area_.

95% of the time he was a nice and agreeable guy. You should not deny that.
In many ways, he contributed more than many of the "watchers" here, me
included.
The problem was when the other 5% came out, it would bring down a big part
of the team with it.
He is not a genius or a saint, but he is not the devil either.

I will not get into any more details than that, it will not be productive.



Matt, I respectfully request that you refrain of making that kind of
comparisons in the future.

Thank you,

- Kenneth


---

[1] Actually, I think we should be more careful about not closing ourselves
to any discussion at all. We should just have a place to redirect it.
Otherwise, we risk pushing away newcomers and alienating ourselves.

[2] 10 IT Concepts That Non-IT People Don't Get:
http://www.hackification.com/2009/09/28/ten-it-concepts-that-non-it-people-dont-get/
[3] Haiku page with forum link that redirects to itself:
https://www.haiku-os.org/glass_elevator
[4] Mailing list without activity for two years:
http://www.bug-br.org.br/mailman/listinfo/glasselevator-talk ]
[5] Another dead GE mailing list:
http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/haiku-glasselevator
[6] Dead Glass Elevator wiki: http://ge.blubinc.com/
[7] Old GE post:
https://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/a_link_to_quot_glass_elevator_quot_site
[8] Matt's post here:
http://www.freelists.org/post/haiku-development/Minimize-button,5
[9] "Tourette's mode" I apologize if that reference was not politically
correct for the reader. It was supposed to be a light joke.

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