[haiku-bugs] Re: [Haiku] #6442: AltGr should have a separate keycode
- From: "rq" <trac@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:50:09 -0000
#6442: AltGr should have a separate keycode
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Reporter: rq | Owner: pulkomandy
Type: enhancement | Status: assigned
Priority: normal | Milestone: R1
Component: Drivers/Keyboard | Version:
Resolution: | Keywords:
Blocked By: | Has a Patch: 0
Platform: All | Blocking:
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Comment (by rq):
Replying to [comment:9 pulkomandy]:
> That's just how a keyboard is meant to work.
Can we make this statement a little softer? Like "That's how Haiku devs
expect the keyboard to work"?
> The AltGr key is meissing from american keyboards,
I'm confused: do you mean the physical keybaords or our layouts? Because
like I said, American keyboards DO usually have two Alt keys, and they
have different scancodes. The only thing they lack are the "Gr" letters on
the key.
> What happens is actually that BeOS never used the "Win" key. It happens
to be mapped as a level 3 shift for now, and that's what should be
changed, freeing that key for other uses (no one uses it as lelvel3 shift
anywhere, anyway).
> There is no way Alt and AltGr doing the same is ever goig to work. Some
people use keyboards that don't have the windows key (mmu_man still has
his IBM Model M keyboard, for example). The win-key is a key you are
allowed to move and do anything with.
> Making alt and alt-gr do the same thing would get everyone lost. Not
only BeOS users, but also every azerty user.
It wouldn't hurt for AZERTY users if you changed the assignment of Alt,
not AltGr. By the way, the usual Lithuanian layout also makes heavy use of
AltGr and AltGr+Shift layers, so I really DO know what I'm talking about.
By the way, I can't understand why retro keyboards should be a deciding
factor here. I don't mind mmu_man loving IBM Model M, but I don't see a
reason why such old models should keep Haiku from progressing. Not having
a Win-key on your keyboard is something you have to opt-in for nowadays,
not the default. IMO, mmu_man could just go to Keyboard preferences and
adjust them.
> It's just plain logical that altgr is the level 3 shift and alt trigger
keyboard shortcuts. Don't create problems where there isn't any.
Well, Alt+C for copy doesn't sound logical for me. I agree that it does
sound logical for long-time BeOS/Haiku users though.
> The win key should be assigned some meaning that is both useful (because
we want to use it) and not vital (because it's missing on some keyboards).
That's the only thing to do, no need to mix up everything else and get
everyone unable to type under BeOS.
That's an overstatement. ;)
> You were annoyed by ctrl and alt being swapped wrt to Windows, and
that's ok, but it only affects power users that use keyboard shortcuts at
all. Changing the meaning of AltGr basically prevents reaching 1/3 of the
characters on an Azerty keyboard. People are going to be lost, and this
will affect 2-finger typers as well as profesionnal 10-fingers-or-more
ones.
Again, I don't intend to change the meaning of AltGr. But I do want to
change the meaning of Left Alt.
> AltGr is the level3 shift (or "option" in the current terminology).
> Alt is the command key.
> Ctrl is the control key.
>
> These are the 3 mandatory keys to use a keyboard and they are always
there when needed.
> Old macintosh keyboard don't have AltGr (even today), but they don't
need it either : their azerty is slightly different (called French (Mac)
in Haiku), and it uses alt+shift+key for the extra chars, placing them
elsewhere on the keyboard. This is also the layout used on the amiga and
similar to the azerty layout of other machines (Amstrad CPC...).
I'm on a Mac now. Both Opt keys act as AltGr here. Though yes, it seems
the French layout is slightly different than that in Windows.
> Now, there is an extra key, that happens to be on most modern Pc
keyboards : the Win key. Despite being mapped to 'something' in the
current keymaps, this key has absolutely no use as of now. As this key is
available on *most* keyboards, but not *all*, you can't rely on it. So you
can't make it the only option key available, nor the only command key :
that would just make most BeOS apps shortcuts unuseable for some people.
For power-users, as you said. I don't think only they use shortcuts, but I
do believe that the number of keyboards without either a Win, or a Commadn
key is very very tiny.
> It can't be assigned to WM actions like stack-and-tile, because these
aren't even reachable with only the mouse. As we didn't find an use for
this key, we mapped it in a way that could be useful to some people. In
American keymap it is the level3 shift, actually not doing anything ; for
others, the level 3 shift was already mapped to AltGr, so the left Win was
mapped to level3, while the right Win was mapped to Option. This is the
only choice that can be played with. Moving any of the other keys would
prevent use of some part of Haiku for some people.
You're confusing me again. Right win was mapped to Command I think, not
Option, because at the moment, Option == Level 3 Shift.
--
Ticket URL: <http://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/6442#comment:10>
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