[guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
- From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:21:37 -0500
Hurray! I agree totally!
--le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:52 PM
Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
> Hi Laura;
>
> Yes, working in HCI I give equal importance to both accessibility and
> usability. Often people wrongly assume that because someone can do
> something they'll be satisfied. This is not the case, and there's growing
> evidence, that when given a choice users will use a product with improved
> usability over one that has poor usability.
>
> I think the mind set is, especially where poeple with disabilities are
> concerned, that accessibility alone is enough to suffice. Various sectors
> of the software industry, such as Microsoft, are beginning to consider
> beyond accessibility to usability, but the majority of people still
> falsely
> assume that accessibility is all that's required. To some extent this is
> probably due to it being all that's required by law, unless future case
> law
> changes this, but to some extent it's due to advocacy campaigns in the
> past,
> which have typically just campaigned for accessibility and not
> accessibility
> and usability.
>
> Will
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:57 PM
> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
>
>
>> Hi Will --
>> That is interesting, and I ran into that all the time when I was still
>> working at AT&T -- I was at one point trying to put screen magnification
>> code into the underlying implementation of X-Windows on unix, which I
>> couldn't use at all the way I was set up, but which some applications
>> required that I needed to use.
>> I spoke a few times to a researcher there who was familiar with this
>> code,
>> and he refused to work on it, saying it was much better to just get a
>> good
>> magnifier and read the screen of the PC or workstation that way -- not
>> taking into account that in a GUI you need a way of quickly navigating to
>> the current point of focus -- be int cursor or top window or mouse
>> icon --
>> and so a software solution was the only practical way of doing it.
>> Anyway, I dropped that and just got by not using the X applications, even
>> though I wasted a lot of time poring through the code to see how hard it
>> would be to put the hooks in and maybe if successful, submit it as an
>> enhancement to the general source.
>>
>> But usability is really at least as important as just basic possibility
>> of
>> seeing something -- I also ran into this the first screen reader I
>> checked
>> into in 1990 -- it was so awkward to use even though it greatly sped up
>> my
>> reading of long email messages -- that I finally ditched it and continued
>> reading with my diminishing vision.
>>
>> Just my thoughts and experiences.
>> Take care.
>> And technology changes so rapidly, along with alternate solutions to
> things,
>> that I really don't think insisting on one particular solution is always
> the
>> right thing, as someone else might come up with a better method.
>> --le
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 3:44 PM
>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
>>
>>
>> > Darrell;
>> >
>> > I'm not sure as to your first point, but as to the second and third, we
>> > need
>> > to take a close look at what accessibility means. In the world of
>> > Human
>> > Computer Interaction, as yes, accessibility applies equally to everyone
>> > and
>> > not just to someone who has a disability, there's several definitions
>> > used:
>> >
>> > * Accessibility
>> > - Just focusing on whether someone can use something, and takes into
>> > account
>> > no other attributes of the interaction
>> >
>> > * Usability
>> > - Prescribed by an ISO standard on usability, and looks at factors of
>> > an
>> > interaction such as efficiency, accuracy, ease of use and even
>> > enjoyability
>> > and satisfaction. Basically it covers how well someone can perform an
>> > interaction.
>> >
>> > I believe that legally these are the two definitions that would be
>> > used.
>> > Section 508 guidelines deal purely with whether someone can use
> something,
>> > not how well they can use it, and over here in the UK, the Disability
>> > Rights
>> > Commission have issued guidance that accessibility of the web will be
>> > based
>> > on priority A, and maybe priority AA, of the W3C's WCAG, which mainly
>> > deals
>> > with whether someone can use something, and again, not how well they
>> > can
>> > use
>> > it. So, the spirit of the legislation would suggest to me, that
>> > legally
>> > accessibility is purely concerned with whether someone can use
> something,
>> > not how well they can use it. Thus points 2 and 3 that you raise may
>> > prove
>> > to be a very weak case if legal proceedings were to be brought against
>> > you.
>> >
>> > Will
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:13 PM
>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
>> >
>> >
>> >> Hi Will,
>> >>
>> >> As I understand it, TTS is extremely limited in at least the following
>> > ways:
>> >> 1.
>> >> Some books don't work with it.
>> >> 2.
>> >> Speech quality is sufficiently poor as to bring its practicality in to
>> >> question.
>> >> 3.
>> >> It is just a straight read, with no capability to navigate through a
>> >> book.
>> >>
>> >> Am I correct on these three points?
>> >>
>> >> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> >> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>> >> A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> >> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:06 PM
>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Darrell;
>> >> >
>> >> > At the end of the day I'm an advocate for accessibility too, the
> number
>> > of
>> >> > bugs I've reported to Microsoft regarding accessibility of their
>> > products,
>> >> > especially Visual Studio, stands testament to that. However, I
> believe
>> >> > breaking the law is one step too far, especially where there already
>> >> > exists
>> >> > a legal method of making something accessible, in this case the TTS
>> >> > plug-in
>> >> > for Reader. Whilst it may not be my method of choice, it is legal
> and
>> >> > does
>> >> > afford accessibility to the .lit format.
>> >> >
>> >> > Will
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 7:45 PM
>> >> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hi David,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> OK. Possibly true. When it comes to accessibility, I'm not afraid
> to
>> >> > take
>> >> >> liberties with that definition. If I got in to trouble over it, I
>> > would
>> >> > not
>> >> >> hesitate to use my blindness as a media/public relations tool.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> >> >> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>> >> >> A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> >> >> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>> > http://ld.net/?nu7i
>> >> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
> Freedom!
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:42 PM
>> >> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
>> >> >> format.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > You need to read the drm documentation carefully. You cannot do
>> >> > anything
>> >> >> > you want with a copy of a book that you purchase that is in
>> > electronic
>> >> >> > form
>> >> >> > such as reverse engineer it. The book in this instance is a
>> >> >> > piece
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > software and in order to accomplish what you want, you'd have to
>> >> >> > reverse
>> >> >> > engineer it.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Johnnie Apple Seed
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:07 PM
>> >> >> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
> format.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Hi Will,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Hmmm, well, legally, if I purchase a Microsoft E-book file, I can
> do
>> >> >> > whatever it is I need to do in order to gain access, for my own
>> >> >> > personal
>> >> >> > use. What probably is not legal is for me to proceed to
> distribute
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > file to others. I find it amazing that MS Reader does not permit
>> >> >> > printing.
>> >> >> > Sighted people love to take on-screen info and send it to our
>> > printers
>> >> > at
>> >> >> > work right away. My employer spends lots of money on consumables
>> >> >> > for
>> >> >> > printers!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> >> >> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>> >> >> > A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> >> >> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>> >> > http://ld.net/?nu7i
>> >> >> > All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
>> > Freedom!
>> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> > From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 11:51 AM
>> >> >> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
> format.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Hi;
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> AFAIK, it doesn't allow printing. As an aside, I doubt the
>> > legitimacy
>> >> > of
>> >> >> >> using OCR seeing as the TTS plug-in is provided to make Reader
>> >> >> >> accessible.
>> >> >> >> I'm not a legal expert, but would imagine that this would only
>> >> >> >> be
>> >> >> >> permissible in situations where the TTS plug-in offered no
> output,
>> >> >> >> such
>> >> >> >> as
>> >> >> >> .lit files composed of scanned images. I think this is slightly
>> >> >> >> different
>> >> >> >> in the UK, where there is no law governing accessibility of
> eBooks,
>> >> >> >> and
>> >> >> >> instead it's left up to the old laws governing photocopying of
>> > books,
>> >> > in
>> >> >> >> which OCR, or at least scanning, of a limited portion of a book
> is
>> >> >> >> allowed.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I am looking into the possibility of getting reader to work with
> at
>> >> > least
>> >> >> >> one of the popular screen readers with a friend from Microsoft.
>> >> >> >> Hopefully
>> >> >> >> something will come out of this.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Will
>> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 6:12 PM
>> >> >> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
>> >> >> >> format.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> Hi Will and all,
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Does MS Reader permit you to print pages from books? If so,
>> >> >> >>> has
>> >> > anyone
>> >> >> >>> tried this with the virtual printer facilities of K1000 or
>> > OpenBook?
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> >> >> >>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems
>> >> >> >>> administrator!
>> >> >> >>> A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> >> >> >>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>> >> >> >>> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>> >> >> >>> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
>> >> >> >>> Freedom!
>> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >>> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 9:03 AM
>> >> >> >>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
>> > format.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> > Hi;
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > I wouldn't like to say at the moment. The legality of this
>> >> >> >>> > is
>> >> > unsure.
>> >> >> >> In
>> >> >> >>> > the U.S. legislation exists that states it's legal to convert
>> >> >> >>> > ebooks
>> >> >> >>> > to
>> >> >> >>> > another format if they are inaccessible, but the big question
>> >> >> >>> > is,
>> >> >> >>> > by
>> >> >> >>> > providing a TTS plug-in for Reader, is the format considered
>> >> >> >>> > accessible?
>> >> >> >>> > I
>> >> >> >>> > know in the UK, you can use OCR to store only a part of a
>> >> >> >>> > book
>> >> >> >>> > on
>> >> > your
>> >> >> >>> > computer, and this prohibits distribution or alteration of
>> >> >> >>> > the
>> >> >> >>> > content.
>> >> >> >>> > Outside of the UK and US I don't know anything about the
>> >> >> >>> > legality
>> >> >> >>> > of
>> >> >> >> this
>> >> >> >>> > sort of situation, and I wouldn't like to offer advice that
> may
>> >> >> >>> > mean
>> >> >> >>> > you
>> >> >> >>> > break the law and are subsequently open to prosicution.
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > I'm currently discussing the point with some folk from MS UK,
>> >> >> >>> > who
>> > I
>> >> >> >>> > suspect,
>> >> >> >>> > being the format vendor, are in a position to make a
>> >> >> >>> > judgement
>> >> >> >>> > on
>> >> >> >>> > th
>> >> > e
>> >> >> >>> > legality. I'll post more when I hear something from MS.
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > Thanks,
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > Will
>> >> >> >>> > Microsoft MVP (Visual Studio/VC++)
>> >> >> >>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >>> > From: "Nektarios Mallas" <nmallas@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 3:47 PM
>> >> >> >>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
>> >> >> >>> > format.
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> >> Thanks for this.
>> >> >> >>> >> Do you know if there is any other way to extract the text
> from
>> > the
>> >> >> >> *.lit
>> >> >> >>> >> file and read it in other standard programs?
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >> Nektarios.
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> >>> >> From: guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
>> >> >> >>> >> Behalf
>> >> >> >>> >> Of Will Pearson
>> >> >> >>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 3:55 PM
>> >> >> >>> >> To: guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
>> >> > format.
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >> Hi;
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >> Whilst MS Reader isn't supported by any of the screen
> readers,
>> >> > there
>> >> >> >>> >> is
>> >> >> >>> >> a plug in. Microsoft have provided a text to speech plug in
>> >> >> >>> >> for
>> >> >> >>> >> Reader
>> >> >> >>> >> that will read aloud the document. It's based on MS SAPI,
> and
>> >> >> >>> >> uses
>> >> >> >>> >> the
>> >> >> >>> >> standard SAPI synth that ships with Windows. You can find a
>> >> > download
>> >> >> >>> >> for this from the Reader downloads page.
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >> Will
>> >> >> >>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >>> >> From: "Nektarios Mallas" <nmallas@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>> >> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 6:39 AM
>> >> >> >>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
>> >> >> >>> >> format.
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >> > Hello list.
>> >> >> >>> >> > Is Microsoft ebook reader accessible by screen readers? Is
>> > there
>> >> >> >>> >> > any
>> >> >> >>> >> > other way to access a *.lit file and extract the text from
> it
>> > so
>> >> >> >>> >> > you
>> >> >> >>> >> > can read it with standard applications such as wordpad?
>> > Thanks.
>> >> >> >>> >> > Nektarios.
>> >> >> >>> >> >
>> >> >> >>> >> >
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** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
** or send a message, to
** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
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