[guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.

  • From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:23:55 -0500

but in a world where the target of your propposition is composed of quite a 
few have nots, backward compatibility as you call it equals accessibility.

Johnnie Apple Seed

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:05 PM
Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.


Hi Laura,

I accept that nothing is perfect, but I think we can reasonably expect that
others would work cooperatively with us to insure accessibility for
everyone.  I just think that the need for accessibility is far different
than a need for backward compatibility.

Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
A+, CCNA, Network+!
Check out high quality telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i
All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:57 PM
Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.


> Hi Will --
> That is interesting, and I ran into that all the time when I was still
> working at AT&T -- I was at one point trying to put screen magnification
> code into the underlying implementation of X-Windows on unix, which I
> couldn't use at all the way I was set up, but which some applications
> required that I needed to use.
> I spoke a few times to a researcher there who was familiar with this code,
> and he refused to work on it, saying it was much better to just get a good
> magnifier and read the screen of the PC or workstation that way -- not
> taking into account that in a GUI you need a way of quickly navigating to
> the current point of focus -- be int cursor or top window or mouse icon --
> and so a software solution was the only practical way of doing it.
> Anyway, I dropped that and just got by not using the X applications, even
> though I wasted a lot of time poring through the code to see how hard it
> would be to put the hooks in and maybe if successful, submit it as an
> enhancement to the general source.
>
> But usability is really at least as important as just basic possibility of
> seeing something -- I also ran into this the first screen reader I checked
> into in 1990 -- it was so awkward to use even though it greatly sped up my
> reading of long email messages -- that I finally ditched it and continued
> reading with my diminishing vision.
>
> Just my thoughts and experiences.
> Take care.
> And technology changes so rapidly, along with alternate solutions to
> things,
> that I really don't think insisting on one particular solution is always
> the
> right thing, as someone else might come up with a better method.
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 3:44 PM
> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
>
>
>> Darrell;
>>
>> I'm not sure as to your first point, but as to the second and third, we
>> need
>> to take a close look at what accessibility means.  In the world of Human
>> Computer Interaction, as yes, accessibility applies equally to everyone
>> and
>> not just to someone who has a disability, there's several definitions
>> used:
>>
>> * Accessibility
>> - Just focusing on whether someone can use something, and takes into
>> account
>> no other attributes of the interaction
>>
>> * Usability
>> - Prescribed by an ISO standard on usability, and looks at factors of an
>> interaction such as efficiency, accuracy, ease of use and even
>> enjoyability
>> and satisfaction.  Basically it covers how well someone can perform an
>> interaction.
>>
>> I believe that legally these are the two definitions that would be used.
>> Section 508 guidelines deal purely with whether someone can use
>> something,
>> not how well they can use it, and over here in the UK, the Disability
>> Rights
>> Commission have issued guidance that accessibility of the web will be
>> based
>> on priority A, and maybe priority AA, of the W3C's WCAG, which mainly
>> deals
>> with whether someone can use something, and again, not how well they can
>> use
>> it.  So, the spirit of the legislation would suggest to me, that legally
>> accessibility is purely concerned with whether someone can use something,
>> not how well they can use it.  Thus points 2 and 3 that you raise may
>> prove
>> to be a very weak case if legal proceedings were to be brought against
>> you.
>>
>> Will
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:13 PM
>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
>>
>>
>>> Hi Will,
>>>
>>> As I understand it, TTS is extremely limited in at least the following
>> ways:
>>> 1.
>>> Some books don't work with it.
>>> 2.
>>> Speech quality is sufficiently poor as to bring its practicality in to
>>> question.
>>> 3.
>>> It is just a straight read, with no capability to navigate through a
>>> book.
>>>
>>> Am I correct on these three points?
>>>
>>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>>> A+, CCNA, Network+!
>>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>>> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>>> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:06 PM
>>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
>>>
>>>
>>> > Darrell;
>>> >
>>> > At the end of the day I'm an advocate for accessibility too, the
>>> > number
>> of
>>> > bugs I've reported to Microsoft regarding accessibility of their
>> products,
>>> > especially Visual Studio, stands testament to that.  However, I
>>> > believe
>>> > breaking the law is one step too far, especially where there already
>>> > exists
>>> > a legal method of making something accessible, in this case the TTS
>>> > plug-in
>>> > for Reader.  Whilst it may not be my method of choice, it is legal and
>>> > does
>>> > afford accessibility to the .lit format.
>>> >
>>> > Will
>>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 7:45 PM
>>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Hi David,
>>> >>
>>> >> OK.  Possibly true.  When it comes to accessibility, I'm not afraid
>>> >> to
>>> > take
>>> >> liberties with that definition.  If I got in to trouble over it, I
>> would
>>> > not
>>> >> hesitate to use my blindness as a media/public relations tool.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>>> >> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>>> >> A+, CCNA, Network+!
>>> >> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>>> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
>>> >> Freedom!
>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:42 PM
>>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> > You need to read the drm documentation carefully.  You cannot do
>>> > anything
>>> >> > you want with a copy of a book that you purchase that is in
>> electronic
>>> >> > form
>>> >> > such as reverse engineer it.  The book in this instance is a piece
>>> >> > of
>>> >> > software and in order to accomplish what you want, you'd have to
>>> >> > reverse
>>> >> > engineer it.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Johnnie Apple Seed
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:07 PM
>>> >> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
>>> >> > format.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Hi Will,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Hmmm, well, legally, if I purchase a Microsoft E-book file, I can
>>> >> > do
>>> >> > whatever it is I need to do in order to gain access, for my own
>>> >> > personal
>>> >> > use.  What probably is not legal is for me to proceed to distribute
>>> >> > that
>>> >> > file to others.  I find it amazing that MS Reader does not permit
>>> >> > printing.
>>> >> > Sighted people love to take on-screen info and send it to our
>> printers
>>> > at
>>> >> > work right away.  My employer spends lots of money on consumables
>>> >> > for
>>> >> > printers!
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>>> >> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>>> >> > A+, CCNA, Network+!
>>> >> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>>> > http://ld.net/?nu7i
>>> >> > All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
>> Freedom!
>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> > From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 11:51 AM
>>> >> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
>>> >> > format.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> Hi;
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> AFAIK, it doesn't allow printing.  As an aside, I doubt the
>> legitimacy
>>> > of
>>> >> >> using OCR seeing as the TTS plug-in is provided to make Reader
>>> >> >> accessible.
>>> >> >> I'm not a legal expert, but would imagine that this would only be
>>> >> >> permissible in situations where the TTS plug-in offered no output,
>>> >> >> such
>>> >> >> as
>>> >> >> .lit files composed of scanned images.  I think this is slightly
>>> >> >> different
>>> >> >> in the UK, where there is no law governing accessibility of
>>> >> >> eBooks,
>>> >> >> and
>>> >> >> instead it's left up to the old laws governing photocopying of
>> books,
>>> > in
>>> >> >> which OCR, or at least scanning, of a limited portion of a book is
>>> >> >> allowed.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I am looking into the possibility of getting reader to work with
>>> >> >> at
>>> > least
>>> >> >> one of the popular screen readers with a friend from Microsoft.
>>> >> >> Hopefully
>>> >> >> something will come out of this.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Will
>>> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> >> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 6:12 PM
>>> >> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
>>> >> >> format.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> Hi Will and all,
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Does MS Reader permit you to print pages from books?  If so, has
>>> > anyone
>>> >> >>> tried this with the virtual printer facilities of K1000 or
>> OpenBook?
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>>> >> >>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>>> >> >>> A+, CCNA, Network+!
>>> >> >>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>>> >> >>> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>>> >> >>> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
>>> >> >>> Freedom!
>>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> >>> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >>> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 9:03 AM
>>> >> >>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
>> format.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> > Hi;
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > I wouldn't like to say at the moment.  The legality of this is
>>> > unsure.
>>> >> >> In
>>> >> >>> > the U.S. legislation exists that states it's legal to convert
>>> >> >>> > ebooks
>>> >> >>> > to
>>> >> >>> > another format if they are inaccessible, but the big question
>>> >> >>> > is,
>>> >> >>> > by
>>> >> >>> > providing a TTS plug-in for Reader, is the format considered
>>> >> >>> > accessible?
>>> >> >>> > I
>>> >> >>> > know in the UK, you can use OCR to store only a part of a book
>>> >> >>> > on
>>> > your
>>> >> >>> > computer, and this prohibits distribution or alteration of the
>>> >> >>> > content.
>>> >> >>> > Outside of the UK and US I don't know anything about the
>>> >> >>> > legality
>>> >> >>> > of
>>> >> >> this
>>> >> >>> > sort of situation, and I wouldn't like to offer advice that may
>>> >> >>> > mean
>>> >> >>> > you
>>> >> >>> > break the law and are subsequently open to prosicution.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > I'm currently discussing the point with some folk from MS UK,
>>> >> >>> > who
>> I
>>> >> >>> > suspect,
>>> >> >>> > being the format vendor, are in a position to make a judgement
>>> >> >>> > on
>>> >> >>> > th
>>> > e
>>> >> >>> > legality.  I'll post more when I hear something from MS.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Thanks,
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > Will
>>> >> >>> > Microsoft MVP (Visual Studio/VC++)
>>> >> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> >>> > From: "Nektarios Mallas" <nmallas@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >>> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 3:47 PM
>>> >> >>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
>>> >> >>> > format.
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> >> Thanks for this.
>>> >> >>> >> Do you know if there is any other way to extract the text from
>> the
>>> >> >> *.lit
>>> >> >>> >> file and read it in other standard programs?
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> Nektarios.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> >>> >> From: guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> >> >>> >> On
>>> >> >>> >> Behalf
>>> >> >>> >> Of Will Pearson
>>> >> >>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 3:55 PM
>>> >> >>> >> To: guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> >> >>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
>>> > format.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> Hi;
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> Whilst MS Reader isn't supported by any of the screen readers,
>>> > there
>>> >> >>> >> is
>>> >> >>> >> a plug in.  Microsoft have provided a text to speech plug in
>>> >> >>> >> for
>>> >> >>> >> Reader
>>> >> >>> >> that will read aloud the document.  It's based on MS SAPI, and
>>> >> >>> >> uses
>>> >> >>> >> the
>>> >> >>> >> standard SAPI synth that ships with Windows.  You can find a
>>> > download
>>> >> >>> >> for this from the Reader downloads page.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> Will
>>> >> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> >>> >> From: "Nektarios Mallas" <nmallas@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >>> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> >>> >> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 6:39 AM
>>> >> >>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
>>> >> >>> >> format.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> > Hello list.
>>> >> >>> >> > Is Microsoft ebook reader accessible by screen readers? Is
>> there
>>> >> >>> >> > any
>>> >> >>> >> > other way to access a *.lit file and extract the text from
>>> >> >>> >> > it
>> so
>>> >> >>> >> > you
>>> >> >>> >> > can read it with standard applications such as wordpad?
>> Thanks.
>>> >> >>> >> > Nektarios.
>>> >> >>> >> >
>>> >> >>> >> >
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