[gps-talkusers] Re: O&M list exchange about wayfinding


Hi Mike,

Very interesting post,

I may have to join that list.  Thanks for posting all the messages.

Have a great day


Dennis *** WB6OBB  ***





On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Michael May wrote:

> I posted a message to the O&M list regarding the debut of nearly 8000
> transit stops now incorporated into the BrailleNote GPS database for the
> Portland Oregon area. This is a wonderful albeit expensive means of
> obtaining one more important source of location information. My message set
> off a lengthy and articulate exchange of ideas on the O&M listserve.
>
> From: Donna Smith <donnafsmith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Hi Prue.  Technology for this sort of thing is growing and improving almost
> daily, and so it's a matter of finding out what meets your needs best.
>
> Talking Signs (with capital letters), is the registered name of a particular
> product.  I think the web site is
> www.talkingsigns.com.
> It works on an
> infrared signal and the speech message is transmitted to a handheld receiver
> carried by the person who is blind.  It requires the person to point the
> receiver in the direction of the signal and press a button to make the
> connection.  When all that happens, she/he will hear a message such as
> "entrance to transit center" or "platform 9 and three quarters" or whatever
> the sign is suppose to impart.  It is technology widely used in Japan, and
> is being expanded to be functional with a cell phone, but that's a research
> project still down the road.  Here in the US there are some transit centers
> who use this technology such as one of the main transit centers in San
> Francisco.  It is also used in some museums to make information about the
> exhibits accessible.  Talking Signs is currently trying to get Congress to
> include provisions in the upcoming transportation act to install this
> technology in the Washington DC area transit system, but currently it is not
> widely in service here.  Ward Bond or Jeff Moyer will be glad to fill in the
> real details for you.
>
> A more common use of speech technology in transit is a system that is tied
> to GPS that makes automated announcements about transit stops and which
> announces the identification of the vehicle when the doors open.  This is
> technology installed on the vehicle, and there is usually a visual display
> of this information that goes along with it.
>
> In transit stations or transfer centers specifically, there is not much
> currently being used that involves speech messages.  A group called Touch
> Graphics out of New York City, did a pilot project of a talking kiosk that
> included a raised line and large print map in addition to an electronic map
> complete with speech output.  This kiosk is still in operation in Penn
> Station in NYC, but it has not been duplicated.  I spoke with Touch Graphics
> a couple of weeks ago, and they are currently looking to develop similar
> kiosks sans the raised line maps, that rely solely on a visual display and
> speech access to give information about a transit system.  Their original
> project in Penn Station had the same issue you mentioned in that the locator
> sound, (in their case it is a birdcall), is constant and annoying to some
> who have to spend time close to it.  In the new technology they plan to
> develop, the locator sound will be activated via a cell phone held by the
> user who needs the information, thus eliminating the need for it to sound
> repeatedly when it's not in use.  You can check them out at
> www.touchgraphics.com.
> Steve Landau is the chief researcher and I'm sure
> would be willing to talk to you.
>
> Then there is the information posted in the message from Michael May
> regarding the interface between GPS information used for transit systems and
> personal GPS devices such as the BrailleNote.  That kind of link already
> exists for people who can use cell phones, but it is not generally made
> available via text for use with assistive technology for people who are
> blind...at least not with regard to transit information.  I'm hoping that
> Michael's message about Portland is a sign that this is on the change.
> However, this is not a universal fix as it requires the individual customer
> to own and operate a device with personal GPS.
>
> There is a project being sponsored by the Federal Transit Administration and
> the Federal Highway Administration jointly to gather together information
> about technology that enhances mobility options for seniors and people with
> disabilities.  If you want to get deeper into this topic and find out more
> about the research out there, I can find some contact info for you.  It's in
> my office, though, so I can't get my hands on it till tomorrow.
>
> You may also want to do a search of the publications available on the
> Transportation Research Board's web site,
> www.trb.org
> and search for key
> words you think will be helpful.
>
> Hope this helps.  There really is a lot of stuff available.
> Peace and Hope,
> Donna Smith
> Training and Technical Assistance Specialist
> Easter Seals Project ACTION
> From: Ashley
> Hi Prue,
>
> Donna did a good job describing the technology with talking signs.
> No wonder people complain if the signals continually beep.  I would be
> complaining too. I'd really recommend the type of technology that announces
> major stops
> audibally and automatically.
> As for locating a stop, I think it would be best for people to use
> existing landmarks in the environment rather than technology.  Also,
> consider how many blind people your system serves and how much money you
> wish to spend on it.
>
> That technology with infrared signals would probably be rather expensive.
> Also, I'm not sure it would work unless there was a clear path between the
> user and the sign.  I have not used such technology because its not
> available here, but I would guess that with such a signal there could not
> be any interference.  I wonder how practical this would be because there
> is always people and obstacles around signs in a busy city.  Besides the
> user has to be in close range and pointing the device in the right
> direction for it to work.
>
> In my opinion, if you are in a busy area, which transit systems usually
> are, you don't need much expensive technology.  You can always ask a
> person for the information you can't see.
> Ashley
>
> From: Mike <mailto:May@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>May@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Ashley,
>
> Most certainly, one should make the most of whatever situation they are in.
> If one has their wits, a cane and good mobility, they can get the job done.
>
> I have to add however that having location information to make life easier
> and to have more choices should not be strictly the province of the
> sighted. It is such an uplifting experience to cruise around Portland
> Oregon or Charlotte NC with as much or more information about bus stops and
> the local environment as any sighted bus rider. I don't have to rely 100%
> on the bus driver to announce my stop. If I change my mind and want to hop
> off the bus to check some place out, I can easily do that and find a
> transfer point effectively.
>
> Truly the barrier to having this independence is the funding of the
> equipment. I'll keep improving the technology and enriching the data
> content. I hope over time that cheaper prices and better funding will put
> this accessibility into the hands of more blind folks worldwide.
>
> Mike
>
> From: Dan Kish
> I agree with Mike whole-heartedly. It is one thing to have the skills to
> successfully problem solve one's way through a desert of confusing or
> lacking information. Good travelers can do this, but at a significant cost.
> It is quite another to conduct one's affairs gracefully, more
> independently, and relatively stress free with the same access to the same
> information that everyone else has. There's a reason for location
> information for sighted people - it makes life a lot easier and more
> straightforward. If it didn't, they wouldn't have it. Blind people benefit
> in all the same ways that sighted people benefit with the right location
> information, and they suffer in all the same ways that sighted people would
> if they didn't have it.
>
> Here's a good example - Some of my Instructional Coaches are good Braille
> Note GPS users. I had them accompany me on a mission through one of our
> County parks to find and mark, using GPS, trees and rock cliffs suitable
> for climbing for some of our younger students. There are whole groves of
> trees and hundreds of meters of rock cliffs, so I wanted to narrow things
> down before bringing the students. Not only did we mark suitable climbing
> environments so we could find them again later with minimal guessing and
> stress, but we also marked the main entrance to the park, and other key
> areas. Each of the 3 of us are extremely accomplished travelers, and among
> the 3 of us, we have more than enough skill to find our way around any
> environment as needed. However, it was just positively blissful to be able
> to walk around the whole park freely, always knowing that we could find our
> way back in a relaxed way. When we were ready to return to the entrance, we
> just let GPS point the way, and were comfortably free to encounter and
> enjoy many aspects of the park that we might not otherwise have
> encountered. Location information gives a whole dimension of comfort,
> confidence, and independence to the travel experience, no matter how good
> you are at it. I hear sighted people complain bitterly every time they
> enter an area with poor signage. I just shake my head with a smile and say
> "welcome to my world."
> Dan
>
> From: Barry Laveene
> DK:  "I, for one, don't support the convention of borrowing the eyes of
> others in order to supplement nonvisual functioning. But, this is a
> common practice taught and used by many with little recognition of the
> profound implications."
>
> Dan, I agree with most of what you've said in your below post.  However,
> either I'm not understanding what you meant with your above statement,
> or I understand it... and disagree with it... at least to some extent.
> Are you suggesting that blind people should strive to be completely
> independent of the eyes of others?  That there should be no situation or
> circumstance wherein we avail ourselves of that "borrowed eyesight?"
>
> The way I see it (no pun intended), the selective use of the eyesight of
> other people is simply one more tool in our repertoire of orientation
> skills... actually, in our information gathering techniques in general.
> Should we not be availing ourselves of this tool?
>
> Please expand on what you meant.
>
> Barry
>
> From: Dan Kish <dankish@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject:      Re: location information
> To: OANDM@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Thanks for asking for clarification.
>
> When I said "I don't support the practice of borrowing the eyes of others",
> I recognize that there is a time and place for just about everything. When
> we borrow the eyes of others, we do so because we don't have access to the
> necessary information - either because the information isn't available to
> us, or because we don't possess the skills, confidence, or whatever to gain
> access. When I travel through an airport, I may ask someone if this is the
> right gate, or the right way to baggage, or whatever, only because I can't
> access the signage. If I could access the signage, I wouldn't be asking.
> When I encounter a raised or Braille sign, I don't ask others to read it,
> because I can, even if it sometimes takes longer. When I am looking for the
> right train track at Union Station, I don't ask others, because the track
> numbers are posted on Braille placards. When I claim my bags at the
> airport, I don't usually ask others to spot my bag, because I can spot it
> myself by feel as it comes by. This may mean touching everyone's bag until
> I reach mine, but I feel more comfortable doing this than having a stranger
> try to spot my bag for me. When I go shopping, I generally have a clerk
> help me find what I need, only because I can't read the labels myself. If I
> know where the desired item is, I go get it myself, and check myself out.
> With GPS, one need depend to a far lesser extent on others to narrate the
> symbolic environment for us, allowing us to be in greater control over our
> own movement and navigation. As perceptual technologies become better and
> more available, we need depend less and less on the eyes of others,
> allowing us to gain full control over our own direction. This may seem like
> a stark outlook, and I don't impose it rigidly on others. Many would argue
> that borrowing the eyes of others need not require sacrifice of self
> direction. This is true, and not true. Of course, we who are facile
> travelers can consult the public as needed without necessarily losing our
> poise and self-reliance. But, there is always a price, paid sooner or
> later. For example, I had an access driver drop me at the airport recently,
> because I don't drive. Well, even if I did drive, I might prefer to take a
> cab or have someone drop me off. But, I was dependent on this driver to
> know where to drop me off - which is to say, I depended on him to be able
> to follow my directions. My directions were given out of the illusion that
> I was in control. Actually, he dropped me off at American Airlines, instead
> of America West. A mistake made because I was dependent on his eyes to show
> me the right way. It was an honest mistake, one which caused me to miss my
> plane. Perceptual technology will in the foreseeable future allow one to
> view one's own signs directly.
>
> The term "borrow" is a very appropriate one. We who "borrow" the eyes of
> others to a lesser or greater extent for whatever reason are bound to
> return something for what we've "borrowed". That is the price. I'm one who
> prefers not to go too far into debt, so I try to "borrow" things as little
> as possible. I find it makes for much cleaner living. As I have met more
> and more blind people, I find that many don't even realize how dependent
> they are on the eyes of others. They sometimes fancy themselves as
> self-reliant, and maybe they are by some definition. Who am I to argue with
> it if it seems to work. But, I also observe that, the more we rely on
> others, however subtly, by choice or necessity, the less freedom we have
> over our own actions. This is true above any definition of self-reliance.
> How many of us have been in situations when there just weren't other eyes
> around? Those of us who have, know. Boy! What a situation. Signs all
> around, and Ne'er an eye to read them. I've striven over the last 10 or 15
> years to heighten my own skills and perceptions to minimize the negative
> impact of such situations on myself, and hopefully on my students.
>
> As I reread this, I fear it may come across as self-rightious. As I say, we
> all do what we need to, because we need to. I don't fault someone for
> asking for help to cross the parking lot or leave a restaurant if they need
> help. I am just one perhaps unique in the way I gage limits and boundaries.
> I was raised as a pretty staunch "do it yourself" sort of person. Even so,
> I too had to break free of the quick sand of "have someone look ..." That's
> the way most of us were trained, because there wasn't seen to be other
> choices. It was a hard lesson to learn, one which I learned largely from an
> older blind friend who's eyes had been opened before mine to the wonderful
> world of self-reliance. He used to laugh at me when I'd have a friend
> staple the Quaker oatmeal packets together in pears,. (When you buy these
> boxes, they come with two packets of each of about 5 different flavors. I
> wanted to use two packets of the same flavor, rather than two packets of
> random flavor. So, I'd ask a friend to staple them together.) No big deal,
> right? I never thought so. But gradually, he, and life, opened my eyes to
> the slippery slope of self versus other reliance, and the line is a hard
> one to draw. I guess it is for all of us, not just blind. I know many
> sighted people far more reliant on other support then some blind people.
> But, I've trained myself now to watch the "give and take" that the
> situation of the blind requires us to engage in. I've seen how coworkers
> talk behind the backs of blind colleagues who rely too much on others, for
> instance. I've heard what people say about blind people who ask for too
> many rides. I've seen how some of my students talk about their blind rehab
> councelors who use their support assistant for everything.
>
> I believe that self directed access to the environment is the key to free
> living. I don't necessarily mean that the environment needs to be
> accommodated in every way for every person, although I do think that
> there's a certain mutual societal courtesy that would be nice to be
> observed. But whether we institute societal conventions that facilitate
> equal access to public information, or we develop person centered
> technologies and strategies that do this, or a combination, I think it's
> high time.
>
> Dan
> From: Barry Levine
> Ah, thanks for the clarification.
>
> As with money, there are those who borrow wisely, there are those who
> don't.
> The key to intelligent borrowing is the ability to service the debt.  I
> think it is neither wise, nor pragmatic, to live a life devoid of the
> assistance of others.  For me, the goal is involvement, not total
> self-reliance.  If I need an elbow for that involvement, that's what
> I'll borrow.  However, I will also recognize that I'm, at that point,
> engaged in a relationship. from which the owner of the elbow should gain
> something.
>
> Barry
>
> Over There
> By: Cathy Anne Murtha
> As my guide dog and I stood in line at the checkout of the River City
> Market at CSUS, I asked the cashier what I considered a simple question.
> "Where are the napkins please?"
> her response was hurried, but sincere, "over there."
> Emerging from the light rail for the first time,
> I managed to catch the attention of a passer-by,
> "please sir, can you tell me where I might catch
> bus 63?"
> A kind voice offered a pleasant response before disappearing into to the
> cacophony of the early afternoon,
> 'you can catch it. 'Over there.'"
> So many things reside over there - napkins, bus stops, pencils, pens,
> clothing racks, department stores and even my shoes! A never ending supply
> of important and indispensable items and locales all reside in this place
> which is
> shrouded in mystery and intrigue.
> I stand in perplexed silence after learning that something is over there.
> It is a place I have never been and have no hope of finding on my own. My
> guide dog is quite skilled in finding chairs, stairs, elevators,
> escalators, helping me cross streets, and can even find me the Diet Pepsi
> display at Food Town;
> however, when I tell her to find "over there" her little bottom hits the
> floor and a small whimper tells me that she is as confused as I.
> We will not be going "over there" today. Over there has caused me a bit of
> vexation, a lot of confusion, and, on occasion, made my heart race.
> I have discovered that "over there" can be a dangerous place. One day,
> While crossing a street, I heard a driver's irritated voice shout out a
> warning of a truck bearing down on me from over there. Shadow artfully
> dodged the oncoming vehicle and pulled me to the safety of the curb. Our
> hearts were both racing as we took a few moments to compose ourselves.
> Close encounters with over there can be frightening experiences.
> Although many blind people have wondered as to the exact location of "over
> there," few have dared to venture forth in an actual exploration of the
> mysterious place.
> One day, while standing in line at the supermarket, I asked the clerk
> where I might find the aspirin. With a cheery smile in her voice, she
> informed me that the aspirin was located "over there." With a weary sigh,
> I decided that I would take the extra step that would unravel the mystery,
> which had vexed
> my compatriots since the beginning of time.
> Taking a deep breath, and attempting to look nonchalant, I smiled at the
> clerk, "Where," I asked, "is over there?" I imagined the girl's shocked
> expression.
> I felt her sharing condescending and concerned looks with her fellows in
> the store. The silence grew palpable as they mulled the possibility of
> allowing a blind person access to the forbidden land. She had no choice;
> she would
> have to tell me how to find "over there!" I had won! Exhilaration swept
> through me as I waited in breathless anticipation. A victorious smile
> crept to my lips, my hand tightened on the handle of Shadow's harness, we
> would soon be going over there!
> The clerk's voice reeked with resignation as the decision was
> made. "That way." She said
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Michael G. May
>
>
> CEO Sendero Group
>
> Developers and distributors of BrailleNote GPS
> Now distributing BrailleNote, VoiceNote, Miniguide, The Tissot Silen-T
> tactile watch and the ID Mate, bar code reader
>
> MikeMay@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.SenderoGroup.com
>
> (530) 757-6800, Fax (530) 757-6830, Mobile (530) 304-0007
> Sendero Group, LLC
> 1118 Maple Lane, Davis, CA 95616-1723, USA
>
> Latitude, 38 33 9.239 North
> Longitude, 121 45 40.145 West
>
>
>
>


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***   Dennis Schwendtner   ***   WB6OBB   ***

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