[gps-talkusers] Re: Help understanding roundabouts

  • From: "Scott Granados" <gsgranados@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <gps-talkusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:58:47 -0800

I totally disagree.
1. Enabling driving centric functions in a blind specific application is a good idea because it allows us to understand the route structures and directions that drivers will use. So, providing directions to a driver for example will be simplified with the features but made more complex if for example walking is always assumed.
2. Understanding the routes taken and the path chosen for driving from point A to point B can help the blind user budget time and even money more effectively by having a better understanding of the intire trip process. This sort of relates to the braille on drive up ATM machines thing. On the surface you'd think why or isn't that a wasted effort. On closer examination though you realize that many times it's the blind passenger in the back seat who's taking advantage of that facility from the back seat. Same here while it might not seem obvious I think there's some value here. Maybe I just fit in the more information is good information camp.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ari Moisio" <arimo@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <gps-talkusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:34 PM
Subject: [gps-talkusers] Re: Help understanding roundabouts



Hi
IMO it makes no sense to build features for sighted drivers to navigators for the blind. There must be more important features to concentrate.
There are free gps navigators for mobile hones, there are cheap navigators (at least compared to prices of 'our' navigators). They are designed just for that, guiding sighted driver around. There should be no need for the blind to use his/her navigator to guide the driver.
Of course blind pedestrian users need their own navigation system for roundabout but that same system does not need to guide sighted driver around. 



You can still escape from the Gates of hell: Use Linux!
--
mr. M01510


On Thu, 20 Dec 2007, Carol Pearson wrote:


Hi all,
Peter, I do agree with your assessment that this is indeed a flaw in the system, not because of any bad programming on Charles' part (to be sure), but rather because understanding still seems to be limited on the importance of this feature being improved because most visually impaired people have a limited concept of roundabouts and cannot improve on this for themselves. Therefore, though there's nothing "wrong" with the system as it is, to improve by giving exit numbers would just make a really good system that much better and, for me personally, I'd then feel confident about directing my drivers. As it is, with heaps of roundabouts to navigate, I just don't use my GPS in a car for the purpose of navigation. This is a shame since both myself and my drivers could benefit from such a change.
Anyway, we're in danger of "doing this to death" and I don't want that because I really do appreciate Charles' work and Senderogroup's fine product.
I just want to suggest that most of us who use roundabouts are having so much difficulty in giving directions using this method that we simply don't do it.
Those who do not use or have roundabouts may not fully comprehend the severity of the problem for those of us it affects. Basically, we find ourselves having to read verbatim some fairly lengthy instructions, rather quickly, and really can't expect our driver to understand what we're saying ... so there's a pretty high stress level here as well as an inability to understand the instructions ourselves in the first place. It is true I won't fully understand "Take the 3rd exit", ... but I don't need to know all the intricacies because I know my driver will understand such an instruction!
Anyway, I'll try to wait patiently and apologise that I have spoken at length about this issue from time to time. Now I'll stop! <Smiles> 

--
Carol
carol.pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxx


----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Bosher" <peter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <gps-talkusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 5:21 PM
Subject: [gps-talkusers] Re: Help understanding roundabouts



Hi Malaina, and All,
A roundabout is sometimes called a traffic circle in the US I believe. It iis a circular road with four or more roads all meeting. So, for example, instead of a four-way junction where you can either turn left, right, or go sstraight on, you ddrive onto the roundabout, and then go around the circle until you come to the road you need. It is supposed to help traffic flow more smoothly, and they are absolutely everywhere in the UK.
Like Alice, who I thought put her points with grace and clarity, I take issue with just one thing that Charles's said. I don't think this is just one more feature being requested by a small minority, but rather a real flaw in an otherwise superb system. If Charles or Mike were to spend a week or two in the UK, perhaps it would keep its rightful place on the to-do list. 

Ever hopefully,

Peter


At 02:08 PM 12/20/07, you wrote:
Could someone explain to me what a round about is? I am not sure I know what these are and I want to understand. 

Malaina


----- Original Message -----
From: "alice dampman" <alicedh@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: <gps-talkusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date sent: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:11:15 -0500
Subject: [gps-talkusers] Re: Help understanding roundabouts



Charles,
  You wrote:
"I can't for example spend all my time
working on just thing that may only help out a select few people

or

when we release we would get hammered by those users who don't

need

such an enhancement and will scream why are we forcing them to

pay

for this upgrade when it only helps out some users.  "
Quite frankly, IMO it would be better to pay attention to those

requesting,

even pleading for a feature that is vital to their everyday

navigation and

ignore those who scream if some feature added is not necessary to

them. No

matter what you do, there are going to be some who like it, need

it, can't

live without it and some who never use it. So why is this

roundabout matter

any different from any other?
  I live in Boston, and we have tons of these roundabouts all

over the

place.
Alice
alicedh@xxxxxxxxxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles LaPierre" <charles@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <gps-talkusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 11:00 AM
Subject: [gps-talkusers] Re: Help understanding roundabouts




Hi Carol,



I do understand there is a difference here between a "would be

nice cool

feature" and one that makes the system more usable for people.

Its a fine

balancing act I must perform to try and satisfy all users.

Rest assured

once I set my mind to the task it will be done and done right,

but at this

point its a huge unknown how much work that will involve.   I

can't for

example spend all my time working on just thing that may only

help out a

select few people or when we release we would get hammered by

those users

who don't need such an enhancement and will scream why are we

forcing them

to pay for this upgrade when it only helps out some users.  I

seem to

recall an issue Humanware had with this very issue.
That being said, I know how important navigating Roundabouts is

especially

outside the US and Canada where they are more common and Sendero

will

seriously consider this moving forward.



Respectfully
Charles.





At 07:42 AM 12/19/2007, you wrote:

Charles,



Whilst I truthfully do understand that people are asking for

other good

and exciting things, I think we need to be realistic here - we're

not just

asking for this because it would be "cool", it just doesn't work

well for

us here in the UK otherwise.  In fact, for some of us it just

doesn't work

... so the whole system therefore is very much under-used as a

result.


I repeat, this is not just a "fun thing", it is a necessity!



I personally was a little disappointed with what I saw coming

into 4.2

because I'd hardly call these "essentials".  Perhaps when I try

them for

myself very soon I'll be pleased with what I see;  but, however

leased I

am, these things won't make the roundabouts more understandable

and/or

workable for me.  ...



Please, please Charles, try to understand where we're coming

from.  Many

of us are hampered enough with roundabouts because of our lack of

visual

concept, so we need it to be made as easy as possible for us to

know what

to tell our drivers.  We know it's a big undertaking and want to

be as

patient as we can, but patience runs out if there appears to be

less than

100 percent commitment to our needs here.  I am sure that isn't

the case,

so look forward to your making more headway soon.



--
Carol
carol.pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxx




----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles LaPierre"
<charles@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <gps-talkusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:37 PM
Subject: [gps-talkusers] Re: Help understanding roundabouts




Hi Peter,
Glad you are excited about GPS 4.2 (even if it doesn't have

roundabout

exits).



Truthfully I have no idea of when this will be addressed, all I

can tell

you it is high on our priority list, but so are a lot of other

REALLY

cool things others have been asking for us for years.



Happy Holidays everyone!
Charles.





At 06:24 AM 12/19/2007, you wrote:

Hi Charles, and All,



Since switching from Trekker a few months back , I've grown to

love

Sendero GPS for ppedestrian use, and I'm excited about the 4.2

upgrade.

However, when I need to help with navigation for a car journey,

which is

quite often, then I have to use Wayfinder.   Do you know just how

many

roundabouts  there are in this country?   the way-point method

you

mention truly isn't workable.   By the time you figure out one
roundabout, you will already have arrived at the next one.



I truly do understand tthat it's complex, and that you are

working on

it. I am just wondering whether you could give us an idea of when

you'll

be able to address it, and in hopes that it keeps this high on

your

priority list.



From an otherwise happy and appreciative user.



Respect,



Peter




At 11:32 PM 12/17/07, you wrote:

Hi Catherine,



You are correct that most mainstream products do tell you the

exit

number for roundabouts but this is something not yet available

for the

Sendero GPS.  It is high on our priority list especially for the

UK and

Australia, but as of GPS 4.2 this has not yet been implemented.



The only option right now is you could explore the roundabout by

moving forward waypoint by waypoint around the roundabout and

count the

number of intersections between the entrance and exit, but this

may not

be always 100% accurate as it may stop at an overpass crossing

this

roundabout, but as long as you are aware of that, this may help

you

navigate the roundabouts.



The command to move forward along your route waypoint by waypoint

is Read Up arrow on a QT or dots 2356 on a BT.



Hope this helps
Charles.



At 03:15 PM 12/17/2007, you wrote:

Hi,



I think this has been discussed here before but I didn't have

much reason to take it in then, and I can't remember what the

conclusion

was.  But I'm having trouble understanding the instructions

Sendero GPS

gives in a vehicle route when it comes to roundabouts.  It seems

to say

take the exit leading northwest or whatever - giving a compass
direction, and saying the name of the road.  But in my experience

both

from people's written/verbal instructions and from other

(mainstream so

to speak) GPS systems, the number of the exit is usually given.

Like

"take the second exit from the roundabout".



Is there any way I can tell from the instructions currently

given, what number the exit will be?  Or must I rely on looking

for the

name of the road?  (If I'm in a car with a sighted driver I

mean).

Because finding road names doesn't always seem possible/easy,

whether

because the signage is rubbish or people don't use their eyes I

don't

know - but it doesn't always work whatever the reason.



So I'm just wondering if anyone has any tips for understanding

the roundabout instructions...



Catherine



Charles M. La Pierre CTO
Sendero Group, LLC



Lat. 37 15' 25" N  Lon: 121 53' 04" W






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*******



Peter Bosher,
Email: peter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.soundlinks.com/
Tel': (+44) (0) 1494 794 797
Fax: (+44) (0) 1494 583 146
snail://
SoundLinks Limited,
43 Broadlands Avenue,
Chesham,
Bucks.
HP5 1AL
England.



Charles M. La Pierre CTO
Sendero Group, LLC



Lat. 37 15' 25" N  Lon: 121 53' 04" W





Charles M. La Pierre CTO
Sendero Group, LLC



Lat. 37 15' 25" N  Lon: 121 53' 04" W






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Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database:
269.17.4/1188 - Release Date: 12/17/2007 2:13 PM







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*******

Peter Bosher,
Email: peter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.soundlinks.com/
Tel': (+44) (0) 1494 794 797
Fax: (+44) (0) 1494 583 146
snail://
SoundLinks Limited,
43 Broadlands Avenue,
Chesham,
Bucks.
HP5 1AL
England.


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