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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 2/26/09, Allen Daves <=
I>&lt;allendaves@xxxxxxxxx&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Allen Daves &lt;allendaves@xxxxxxxxx&gt;<BR>Sub=
ject: Re: [geocentrism] leselene part 2<BR>To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<BR=
>Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 12:10 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv98877638>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop><BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormalCxSpFirst style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"T=
imes New Roman" size=3D3>Part two:</FONT>=20
<P class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3=
><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN>&nbsp;</SPAN>Your experimental sectio=
n=E2=80=A6.</FONT></FONT>=20
<P class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"=
Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT>=20
<P class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"=
Times New Roman" size=3D3>Your experiment applies rotational force to your =
balloon as the balloon orbits your apparatus but does not change orientatio=
n to your apparatus because it is prevented by the friction the exist betwe=
en your balloon and apparatus... while the balloon is attached to your appa=
ratus is it not in rotation wrt your apparatus, it is only when you release=
 the balloon from the apparatus that the resistance between the balloon and=
 the apparatus is also released=E2=80=A6.. it the begins to rotates wrt to =
your apparatus, <SPAN>&nbsp;</SPAN>which is the RF of your earth moon syste=
m=E2=80=A6.I have already covered this in the Motors experimental example =
=E2=80=A6.there is no rotation while sufficient reissuance to the force is =
present between the balloon and the apparatus=E2=80=A6the rotation that exi=
st only exist wrt the balloon and apparatus=E2=80=A6otherwise you only crea=
te a larger RF with more bodies
 who=E2=80=99s motion must be consider. This does not define the motion it =
only creates more motions that must be defined=E2=80=A6 The same questions =
must be asked which one is doing the Rotation? How do you define that? If y=
ou assume that you are stationary and thus observed the rotation from your =
observational location then you are invoking by definition a ARF to define =
your motions=E2=80=A6.This begs the question how can you have a Absolute RF=
 to use define your motions without being able to absolutely measure the mo=
tions?!..the appearance of rotation only exist from your vantage point..in =
your universe where only the balloon and apparatus exist which one is in mo=
tion?..Yes, i would say the balloon&nbsp;did roatate after it was realeased=
 and&nbsp;that makes my case not yours.&nbsp;The balloon&nbsp;only&nbsp;beg=
ins any rotaional&nbsp;motion wrt the apparatus once it is released not bef=
ore. As such your apparatus&nbsp;is considered the RF for your experiment n=
ot the
 observer! =E2=80=A6.. when you release your balloon you also remove the re=
sistance to that rotational force=E2=80=A6this is noting new here just a di=
fferent bow on the top=E2=80=A6</FONT>=20
<P class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"=
Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT>=20
<P class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"=
Times New Roman" size=3D3>If you don=E2=80=99t understand this or you think=
 I am just playing with words then consider taking your experiment into =E2=
=80=9Cdeep space=E2=80=9D (or obit) considering only your three body univer=
se <I>(nothing outside your local RF)</I> ..now define the motions=E2=80=A6=
.!???!? <SPAN>&nbsp;</SPAN>Remember you cannot go outside your reference fr=
ame to give yourself a frame of reference=E2=80=A6..Your universe (three bo=
dies) in an of themselves do not and cannot define the motions of your thre=
e bodies without using something or some other observation post as a ARF fr=
om which to define those motions!=E2=80=A6If you can define motion as absol=
ute then you must be able to measure it absolutely!...All you have demonstr=
ated is the appearance of a kind of motion <B><U>but only</U></B> from a sp=
ecific vantage point, from other locations the apparatus would appear to ro=
tate=E2=80=A6.your experiment only
 demonstrates the appearance of motion at your location, .but you never act=
ually get to the point where you define it!! If the definition is just rela=
tive then all you gave us was the appearance not proof of anything=E2=80=A6=
..if on the other hand you accept that the balloon was in actual rotation t=
hen you must accept the logical imperative for a ARF. Without which there i=
s no way to define your motions.</FONT>=20
<P class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"=
Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT>=20
<P class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"=
Times New Roman" size=3D3>Describing =E2=80=9Ca thing=E2=80=9D not matter h=
ow vividly demonstrates nothing=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6..</FONT>=20
<P class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"=
Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT>=20
<P class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"=
Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT><BR>--- On <B>Wed, 2/25/09, Paul Dee=
ma <I>&lt;paul_deema@xxxxxxxxxxx&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Paul Deema &lt;paul_deema@xxxxxxxxxxx&gt;<BR>Su=
bject: [geocentrism] leselene<BR>To: Geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<BR>Date: Wed=
nesday, February 25, 2009, 10:03 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1511865776>
<STYLE type=3Dtext/css><!--#yiv98877638 #yiv1511865776 DIV {margin:0px;}-->=
</STYLE>

<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT size=3D2>
<DIV>Greetings all.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Hasn't it been quiet lately?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial size=
=3D2>
<DIV>For some time now, Allen Daves has been resolutely asserting (and pret=
ending that he has demonstrated) that the Moon does not rotate. Here are th=
e key points for anyone who is behind the play. (References are given at th=
e bottom). Emphasis is mine.</DIV>
<DIV>In brief -</DIV>
<DIR>
<DIR><B>
<DIV>[AD] "...the Moon orbits it most certainly does not rotate".</DIV>
<DIV>[PD] "... are the laws of physics the same at all points in the univer=
se?</DIV>
<DIV>[AD] 1. YES</DIV>
<DIV>[PD] "The Moon has a sidereal period of approximately 27.322 mean sola=
r days. At full moon the Earth vanishes. Will its sidereal period change an=
d if so by (roughly) how much?"</DIV>
<DIV>[AD] "what the sidereal period of the moon would be............. if th=
e earth suddenly disappeared?" ....It would be the same as is and has and e=
very will be now!? That is as succinctly of an answer to your question as p=
ossible. </B>[PD While precise interpretation of the forgoing is not really=
 possible, I take this as intended to mean that if it is rotating prior the=
n it will be rotating subsequently and if it is not rotating prior then it =
will not be rotating subsequently].</DIV></DIR></DIR>
<DIV>In further discussion, Allen Daves stated -</DIV>
<DIR>
<DIR></FONT></FONT><B><FONT size=3D2>
<DIV>"If you cannot separate out the motions and still observe the motion t=
hen it does not exist.</DIV></DIR></DIR></B>
<DIV>... and -</DIV>
<DIR>
<DIR>
<DIV>"... <B>it always comes down to what you imagine could be vs what you =
can actualy demonstrate."</DIV></B></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT=
 face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIR></DIR>
<DIV>At this point, I ask anyone wishing to comment on this matter, to plea=
se view the material presented at http://au.video.yahoo.com/watch/4558230/1=
2206499.<FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> </FONT></FONT></FONT><=
FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">This is the demon=
stration which I foreshadowed in my "Uranus" post of 2008_Dec_19 and severa=
l subsequent references; the demonstration which Allen erroneously convince=
d himself that I had claimed to have already given despite many hints that =
he was mistaken.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT fa=
ce=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV>I submit that the demonstration, together with the concessions already=
 made, supports my contention that the Moon does rotate and refutes Allen D=
aves' contention that it does not.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In the ten days remaining to me on the forum, I will welcome support, =
join discussion and refute objections.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Paul D</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><B>
<DIV>[] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [=
] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [=
] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] []</DIV></B>
<DIV>Here are the references for the above statements -</DIV>
<DIV>ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo</DIV>
<DIV>From Bernie Brauer <B>Wed Nov 19 </B>16:28:08 2008</DIV>
<DIV>[geocentrism] Moon Rotation</DIV>
<DIV>(Also see http://sites.google.com/site/earthdeception/moonmovement -- =
Allen Daves)</DIV>
<DIV>Question: In Geocentrism/Geostatic, does the Moon rotate?</DIV>
<DIV>Answer: Think about every rotation you can observe . . . it is nothing=
 more than a single point that has a progressive radial orientation to a co=
mmon point . . . now look on the Moon . . . take any fixed point on the Moo=
n . . . the only progressive radial orientation made by any fixed point on =
the Moon is to a common point that lay outside the Moon . . . thus the Moon=
 does not rotate it orbits . . . a rotation is a progressive radial orienta=
ion to a common point that lay internal of the object in rotation . . . i.e=
. the center of a record, drill any hole you want to in it . . . all rotati=
on will be around that point that lay inside the record itself . . . where =
in an orbit the only common point that any other point on the Moon can make=
 a progressive radial orientation to is at the Earth not the Moon . . . orb=
it common point outside the body in question . . . rotation =3D common poin=
t internal to the body in question <B>. . . the Moon orbits it most
 certainly does not rotate. Allen Daves</DIV></B>
<DIV>ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo</DIV>
<DIV></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>=
From Paul Deema <B>Wed Nov 26 </B>11:43:36 2008</DIV>
<DIV>[geocentrism] Moon Rotation`</DIV>
<DIV>I'll look at this tomorrow but in the meantime -- in one word (where t=
hat one word is a subset of 'yes/no') -- are the laws of physics the same a=
t all points in the universe?</DIV>
<DIV>ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo</DIV>
<DIV>From allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <B>Wed Nov 26 </B>12:51:07 2008</DIV>
<DIV>[geocentrism] Moon Rotation</DIV>
<DIV>1. YES</DIV>
<DIV>ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo</DIV>
<DIV>From Paul Deema <B>Thu Nov 27 </B>01:37:59 2008</DIV>
<DIV>To my question regarding the universality of the laws of physics, you =
have answered "1. YES". Thank you. I do so applaud forthrightness.</DIV>
<DIV>ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo</DIV>
<DIV>From Paul Deema <B>Thu Dec 13 </B>16:56:43 2007</DIV>
<DIV>re:Rotation of camera</DIV>
<DIV>Allen D</DIV>
<DIV>The Moon has a sidereal period of approximately 27.322 mean solar days=
. At full moon the Earth vanishes. Will its sidereal period change and if s=
o by (roughly) how much?</DIV>
<DIV>Paul D</DIV>
<DIV>oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo</DIV>
<DIV>From Allen Daves <B>Fri Dec 14 </B>16:31:02 2007</DIV>
<DIV>[geocentrism] Re: Rotation of camera</DIV>
<DIV>Paul,</DIV>
<DIV>1. I say things the way i do to get a certain response .</DIV>
<DIV>2. the answer to your question is " If the moon is still be moving the=
 way it did before the earth's disapearance then it will see exactly the sa=
me things the same way it did before the earths disappearance."</DIV>
<DIV>ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo</DIV>
<DIV>From Allen Daves <B>Sun Dec 16 </B>17:37:03 2007</DIV>
<DIV>[geocentrism] Re: (no subject)</DIV>
<DIV>"what the sidereal period of the moon would be............. if the ear=
th suddenly disappeared?" ....It would be the same as is and has and every =
will be now!? That is as succinctly of an answer to your question as possib=
le. I stated as much in my very first and all subsequent responses!? </DIV>
<DIV>ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo</DIV>
<DIV>From Allen Daves <B>Sat Jan 3 </B>16:56:07 2009 </DIV>
<DIV>[geocentrism] Re: Uranus</DIV>
<DIV>4. The difference between our positions is that one has a meaningful a=
nd useful application the other is infinite imagination complicated infinit=
ely, with no relevance to the world we live in except in pure imagination e=
xternal of observation. We already know what you prefer and that is ok=E2=
=80=A6.what you fail to see is that you have no logic, observational or exp=
erimental bases for assuming or claiming that approach is more reasonable. =
This is particularly true since it is determined purely by what you cannot =
see and what you cannot demonstrate to attempt to argue what you do not and=
 cannot know!? =E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6 As said before=
 any fool can make things more complicated, it takes real genius to go in t=
he opposite direction=E2=80=A6</DIV>
<DIV>ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo</DIV>
<DIV>From allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <B>Fri Jan 9 </B>16:24:58 2009</DIV></F=
ONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2>
<DIV>[geocentrism] meditations on Scripture</DIV>
<DIV>I''m not the one who is complicating things it is so ironic that you s=
ee it that way... .......any defintion used to create the axis you kee refe=
ring to logicaly demands a axis for every single and infinate ,"infinity" y=
ou can imagine. at any "pratical scale" you choose imhotep or not :-).....w=
hy? ....because what defines one just as equaly defines all the others.....=
The error is that you do not see that your application and defintion and us=
e of rotation and its axis applies equaly to every infinity you can imagine=
. you have no way of claiming an objective separtaion between your axis and=
 infinate axis. The key point is that cannot just arbitraily pick one axis =
out of all your posible infinities and call it an objective anylisis of any=
thing....cherey picking your observations and results and then calling ever=
ything else "error" is simply silly!....</FONT><B>If you cannot separate ou=
t the motions and still observe the motion then it does not
 exist</B><FONT size=3D2>......period firiment or no firmiment ..as the for=
ce examples all show there is and can only be a logical claim to a preventi=
on of a rotation, not a rotaion due to any demonstratable force.</FONT> <B>=
it always comes down to what you imagine could be vs what you can actualy d=
emonstrate</B>.........</DIV><FONT size=3D2>
<DIV>ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo</DIV>
<DIV>From allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <B>Sat Jan 10 </B>01:10:50 2009</DIV>
<DIV>[geocentrism] Uranus</DIV></FONT><B><FONT size=3D4>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>... it always comes down to what you imagine could be v=
s what</FONT> you <FONT size=3D5>can</FONT> <FONT size=3D6>actually </FONT>=
<FONT size=3D7>demonstrate ...</FONT></DIV></B></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times N=
ew Roman" size=3D2>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">[] [] [] [] [] [] =
[] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] =
[] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] =
[] [] []</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR>
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