Dont forget that there are other scriptures that give an indication as well, I cannot remember where they are but there is one that says to not repetitivlt repeat a prayer as the nations do, Buddist mantras come to mind. There is also the parable Jesus gave of the man who wanted a loaf of bread from a man who was in bed and didnt want to get up, in the end the man did get up just so he could get some peace. I find when I pray the feeling of Gods Spirit in me, thats when I feel he msut be listening. Pete Charlton ----- Original Message ----- From: philip madsen To: geocentrism list Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 6:06 AM Subject: [geocentrism] meditations on Scripture The Lords Prayer . One of the things I worry about concerns the would be christians of this world, and in particular those whom I know personally, who claim Scripture alone can save. I know they insist that this means calling on the name of Jesus, and the need to believe in Him and all that he taught. I do not argue at all against that. My concern is that this is not enough. It ignores the need of a set discipline. So long as any person can mould his life by self discipline accorting to his own wits as interpreted by scripture, he can never be certain that he is acting under the guidance of the Paraclete. No matter how much he FEELS this to be true. There are much too many contradictions among the millions who do this. And one thing is certain. God does not contradict Himself, but is unchanged and unchangeable forever. I used the words "set discipline" . Above all that God teaches in scripture, is the need of obedience. A set rule or a set of rules that are without any error. Can that ever happen among men without an authoritarian Church? The history of Christianity in all its variety seems to say No! Jesus demands that all of His flock, (that means sheep) shall be under one shepherd.. Now the Shepherd controls his sheep. He disciplines them. The Bible cannot do that, when it is left to me or you to chose our own discipline or punishment. The Bible, as marvellous as it is, it is this very marvelousness that makes it unable to be the shepherd.. I have already shown that there is no way of discerning the Spirit in the words of the book, with any certainty for any person, based upon his personal feelings. The simple experience of the contradictions such creates is ample evidence of that. So much is said, but yet so much is left unsaid, and left to the imagination. A Catholic will see it as a Catholic, a protestant as a Protestant, a born again believer as the way his favourite preacher tells it, or the book he wrote. The Holy Spirit has very little chance of getting in there, save a direct miraculous interference from God. And God does not do that without ample real supernatural evidence.. It is not His way to be indistinguishable from the devil. It was the Lords prayer which prompted this email. I found the DR Mathew version, which is not worded like the standard prayer Christians recite, from the other gospels, but it suffices for my case. This is the only prayer the Bible discipline demands. It figures in almost every ritual of the orthodox Universal Church of Jesus Christ, as well as many sects. Yet how many who are Bible only believers repeat this prayer? Jesus said, 9 Thus therefore shall you pray: He commands it. A discipline.. He speaks against friendly conversations, as being prayers. In the agony of the Garden He says Pray often, less the Devil (temptation) get in . Thus we have a case for repetition as being a means of keeping you focussed on God, and the Devil out. Can we do any better than repeating the only prayer He commended? I think there is a better way, but who can stand it. We could recite Scripture. The Psalms have historically kept many monks and priests on their knees for hours.. Not my cup of tea. Not for most modernists used as we are to the easy life. But simple folk were given, or they took, the Rosary, straight from Scripture, easily remembered, no reading ability required.. The Lords prayer, and the Angelic salutation, repeated often, whilst meditating on the complete Scriptual life of Jesus. I can say no more than leave the words from Mathew, underlining the key words which prompted this message, and a short conclusion following. 7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. 8 Be not you therefore like to them for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him. 9 Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our supersubstantial bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen. 14 For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. 15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences. Here we have Jesus actually telling you how to be saved. You have to ask the Father "forgive us our debts" . It seems that people take a dangerous option, presuming on Gods Mercy, that they are automatically saved by prescribing to their own particular interpretation of the words of God. A very dangerous option indeed. I prefer submission! Prostrate on the ground. Forgive me Oh Lord, I am a misarable sinner!. If I am wrong, it is because I am ignorant, and if I am right, it is not because I am clever, but because of your grace. Philip.