Allen D Since JA is away for a bit, may I attempt to entertain you in the interim? I looked back over that collection of drawings you sent me ... From Allen Daves Tue Nov 6 19:36:53 2007. I couldn't help concluding after a quick scan that you seem to be describing things the way I have been describing them for some time and the way JA has been describing them recently. This is that, if heliocentricity is the reality, then star trails around the NCP (as observed -- no argument here) will be evident, as will similar trails (different stars but still -- big argument) around the NEP, but that because the latter is not observed, then heliocentricity is shown to be false. Is this the nub of the argument? You see, some little time in the past, when I pointed out to you that the distance to these stars was such that no observer baseline possible could have any non trivial effect on the size and shape of these trails but you stated that even the latitude from which they were observed would have a noticeable effect. You haven't rescinded this statement but as I said, the impression I gained was that you are now basically wearing the clothes I laid out for you. You do see my predicament? Now if the nub of the argument in fact is as stated above -- that these trails have not been detected -- I have no knowledge of how you have attempted to detect them. It may be buried in the verbiage, but I can't see it. My impression is that you believe that the NEP centred star trails will be visible in photos of the NCP centred star trails taken on a single occasion but it is not clear. Is this so? This post contains two questions. National Bingo Night. Play along for the chance to win $10,000 every week. Download your gamecard now at Yahoo!7 TV. http://au.blogs.yahoo.com/national-bingo-night/