I might just have got it Mike. I visualised the angles of sky I could see at sunset. Just after, and at sunrise just before. I also got the scale to be more realistic. Perhaps over the period of the night we do get to see a much wider angle of the sky than just the 180o I wrongly assumed. Sorry for distracting everyone. But, there is always a but....my argument still stands at midnight, as far as the eye and I can see. Two antennas meet on a roof, fall in love and get married. The ceremony wasn't much, but the reception was excellent. Philip ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip" <joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:21 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: (geocentrism) geostationary / geosynchrous sat. Thanks Mike. I visited the web site you sent , it said, "Those which rise and set, rise at the same place on the horizon night after night, year after year. (Where they set doesn't change either). Those which rise in the NE set in the NW. (Think about that statement and try to visualize its meaning.)" That last comment said much I'm still trying. If the stars are all fixed with the sun, (time relatively) then why do the stars not follow the suns annular migration from north to south? How can they remain rising in the exact same spot EVERY DAY. ??? I realise this bears no relation to the geocentric argument. However my original post does. And I repeat it here. The sun and stars are fixed. then when earth is at December part of its orbit. That night time is lets say 0 degrees away from the sun. 6 months later, the earth is at June, part of the orbit, and the night time heaven is 180 degrees in the opposite direction from the sun as what was seen in December. Lets leave the southern and northeren stars out of the question, as naturally these would not be affected by sunlight. during the polar winter nights of days Yes I did draw a fixed star system in quadrants with a fixed sun in the midst thereof. I moved an earth point in a circle around the sun in the midst thereof, and this supports my observation above. Four times over a year the night sky must present a different quadrant of the stars to the observer. I always did ask silly questions. Philip.