-----Original Message-----
From: pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:46:25 +1000I don't know -- but I'll move on now.
With respect to all,
John
Hey John... Hope you are not moving on er off .. the list that is.. I'm not finished with ya yet! Grin..You said,So it's significant that Neville appears to believe little of what the bible says,I don't really believe that... not at all.. All he has done is shown an open ness to what it all means.. Something everybody wants.. right Neville? Thats putting honesty above conviction... something a lot of scientists will not do.Phil
Well, as a very clever French professor I know used to say, whenever anyone asked him an awkward question, "you are right, and you are not right."
The most important and significant thing for me to realize about the Bible was when I clearly saw that the Jews are not God's 'chosen people'. Far from it. Yet this was there, before my nose, all the time: "Ye are of your father, the Devil, and the works of your father ye will do, for he was a liar and a murderer from the beginning."
This is a truth and it definitely set me free. In fact, Phil, you were a member of this forum in the days when I would ban someone if they insulted the Jews. The truth opened my eyes not only to exactly what is going on in this sick and depraved world, but to the "lying pen of the scribes" and the "yeast of the Pharisees."
Only recently have I discovered that Judaism was created out of stolen Egyptian beliefs in order to give a wandering bunch of liars and deceivers some form of credence.
There are truths in the Bible, but where I differ from you and John is that I see that these truths are intertwined with lies and deceit. directed by, ... well, who is the master of deceit?
So, and in answer now to John's question, I would say that 'moved' (in, off the top of my head, Ps. 93:1, 96:10, 1 Ch. 16:?) means to physically, spatially move, and that this scripture is true. This, actually, gives you both a good idea of my position, inasmuch as I now deny Joshua's 'long day', not because of the Sun and Moon being told to stand still, but because it labels God as the patsie (the past is the key to the present). Such a bloodthirsty character could only be the Devil. This is how I decide what to believe and what to deny. The Jews either engaged in this wanton carnage because they revel in it, or because the Devil instructed them, or both.
Hence, you and John will still see quotes from the Bible on my web site, but they will never be of the Joshua's 'long rampage of blood and gore' type.
Best wishes,
Neville.----- Original Message -----From: John RoodtSent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 2:55 PMSubject: [geocentrism] Re: correction:-) no problem, Phil. And, no, I am not a clever scholar.
We're like a company of soldiers all marching to the beat of the drum in our own heads, and each of us loudly protesting that we're the only one in step.
But even though we should probably end this discussion, I see no reason to apologise to this forum.
Wasn't it the Scripture that caused us to question the current model of the Universe? Even though we had no scientific proof, we were confident that the Bible held a contrary view, and we were inclined to believe it.
In fact, Neville's website initially quoted the Scriptures that indicated that the Earth was fixed and could not be moved.
I asked the question ages ago whether or not the word 'moved' meant a physical movement as opposed to: "my heart is steadfast and will not be moved", or "I was moved to tears" etc. No one answered it. But I have watched the debates to see if the question would be answered anyway.
So it's significant that Neville appears to believe little of what the bible says, and that you and I (and others) can differ so much in our interpretation of what the bible says. Does it really matter to us whether or not we rotate and orbit or just stand still? What matters is that there is an apparent discrepancy between what Science says and what we believe the Bible says. At least that's how it appeared when I joined this forum. Maybe you've all moved beyond that and I haven't. My only concern is: "what is the truth?"
We both love the truth; we read the same Scriptures; and we pray to the same God for understanding on these matters and others far more important than whether the Earth moves or not. How then can we be so far apart?
I don't know -- but I'll move on now.
With respect to all,
John
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 1:48 PM, philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Peter came in with some biblical comments that seemed to deny Jesus was God. along with other, Therefore I can answer those points together with my response to Johns below. inserted in brown.. Philip.----- Original Message -----Phil,
Catholics overlook one glaring truth. JESUS EXISTED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN!! In what possible sense could Mary be his mother in Heaven?!? A Mystery perhaps but Elizabeth did say it..42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Some Catholics may overlook it ! but they are not "clever scientists" like myself, and would hardly be expected to comprehend the complexities of time space and eternity. Thats why Heaven is called a place of many mansions!I have already asked John using this same quotation , did he understand the difference. "Before Abraham was born, I AM". Time is temporal or temporary.. Eternity in temporal terms is compared to an everpresent "now" A mystery to 3D human brains, but fully experienced in the next world. " We pray ....." Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be..."beginning = ever shall be..What has Mary to do with Him?46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy is his name.
Jesus entered this world for a purpose ... He wasn't created here the way we are. He already existed. He is no-one's Son but God's alone. Mary is NOT the mother of God.And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?She is not even the mother of Jesus in glory -- how could she be?You read into my words a thing I did not say. And it is off subject, unless you are only interested in Catholic bashing.. I am not into protestant bashing, and will not be drawn into such a slanging match here.
You've said it yourself, Catholics make "Graven images of things in Heaven and Earth and pay them homage"... how much more evidence must you see of pagan worship before your eyes are opened and you see the truth?Sufficient to say, no catholic may pay homage to images or things. Respect absolutely, as I would hope you give to the Holy Book, lest someone commit sacrilege with it. You could not see, or else ignored my accent on humility in all things as promoted by Mary.
The Bible is an incredible work. Consider how God allows sinful men to be the writers of His Word. Even Jesus did not commit anything to writing -- He knows that He can get man to write down His eternal and perfect truths. Even though they are weaved into the fabric of human existence -- interlaced with the stories of sinful human lives. It is truly amazing. How awesome, and wise, and great is our God. The depth of His Wisdom is unfathomable.Thus here may I take the quote Peter used and His comment..It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.'So, unless a doctrine such as Mary veneration is in the Bible, it is a doctrine of men. Peter. "Consider how God allows sinful men to be the writers of His Word. Even Jesus did not commit anything to writing -- He knows that He can get man to write down His eternal and perfect truths"And if you did not hear it from His mouth, how can you be absolutely sure the Bible is not a collection of the doctrines of men!Jesus selected 12, many more than the few of the testaments. Yet it was the men who followed centuries later who decided to collect and authorise the Books into a canonised NT of Scripture. "Doctrines of men " As are the Quran or the Book of Mormon!.... They cannot authorise themselves..
Mary is just a blessed part of the fabric through which God wove His plan for salvation. Jesus himself said that no-one born of woman was greater than John the Baptist -- not even Mary. How could she be exalted above even John the Baptist?
These issues are your preferred interpretation. If you are indeed a clever scholar then I must weigh your opinion against other clever scholars who also are very well educated men. And after that, then one must wonder which if any has the guidance of the Holy Ghost.That the most intelligent of scholars in the world are unable to find consensus on so many issues raised by Bible study, is fair evidence to show how in-appropriate is the idea that the Bible Alone suffices unto salvation.
Thanks for efforts to explain your position, but I think you need to step back and re-look at what you believe.Be sure I believe nothing blindly. I said above, "And after that, then one must wonder which if any has the guidance of the Holy Ghost. " If it was on scholarship alone, I would have no faith. I firmly believe that those men whose apostolic succession is proven by the historical continuity of "laying of the hands" in ceremonial sacramental ordination all the way back to the Apostles, and to Christ Himself are the most logical group whose scholarship would be guided by the Holy Ghost; that same group of men who collected and authorised the Holy Scripture and protected it throughout the centuries.I agree, we have exhausted the subject here. Its been an enjoyable discussion. My Prayers as always are with you and all the members of the group. Many thanks to Neville for his tolerance and for allowing us to proceed. Regards, Philip.
JohnOn Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 10:05 AM, PETER CHARLTON <peter.nambo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
There is an awful lot at stake here. How terrible for either of us to cling to our beliefs at the cost of our souls. Incidentally, is there a consequence to denying Mary as "Queen of Heaven"?A good question indeed for Jesus said 7 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.'So, unless a doctrine such as Mary veneration is in the Bible, it is a doctrine of men.46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, look! his mother and brothers took up a position outside seeking to speak to him. 47 So someone said to him: "Look! Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak to you." 48 As an answer he said to the one telling him: "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 And extending his hand toward his disciples, he said: "Look! My mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."
Also, Jesus showed us that even he himself was not to be venerated, let alone his Mother, only his Father in heaven, MT 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
MT 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.Pete Charlton
