related quote: "An Earth system model wherein the sun goes around the Earth following the ecliptic path that is inseparable from the heliocentric model is not required at all in the Geocentrism model... Using the 'solar system' heliocentricity path of orbit on a Geocentrism model doesn't work because that path is not actually part of the Geocentrism model." Marshall Hall marc-veilleux@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote: Philip, First I must apologize for not being able to follow the forum ; I wish I had more time. On your email below (I couldn't send back with your drawings), you tricked the forum by not showing in both examples the same data. In your first example (2 drawings), the ecliptic line is shown as going through the center of the earth, while in your second example, the line of the ecliptic is only going through the center of the Earth on the equinoxes. So your conclusion (or assumption) is not valid. Marc V. ----- Original Message ----- From: philip madsen Sent: 2 janvier 2008 00:05 To: geocentrism list Subject: [geocentrism] an axis or not? I must say that the recent discussions on the solar orbit debate with its complex diagrams did cause me some amazement. It was as if some people saw the graphic geometrical representations as a reality, something that I just could not appreciate. So I decided to put up an example of equivalent geometry, with the accent on axes. You know, the celestial versus ecliptic type. My diagramatic graphics will not approach the complexity of others but it should suffice. Please note that I will assume and presume a geocentric solar system. Heliocentrists may just accept it as an exercise in geometry. In the first diagram I show a stationary earth with an axis through the N-S poles, still called the celestial axis. I also show the suns 24 hour orbit around the earth by two positions 12 hours apart, and the annual orbit which has an axis enclined to the celestial axis some 23 degrees. Notice that in this motion of the suns 24 hour orbit around the world during which it travels a short part of its 365 day orbit , that the axis of the orbit has a 24 hour precessional motion like a top spinning off balance. So this axis is merely a geometrical expression varying in time. Let me show you the equivalent motions in another geometrical form which is far closer to the reality. Here we have the solar motion as it really is, a helix (spring) Where in the sun travels north and south to complete its annual orbit. This is identical mathmatically and physically as the last drawing except, where is the axis of a spring? Here we have the solar orbit axis in line with the celestial axis, as I have always maintained it should be. Philip. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.