[geocentrism] Re: Whos side are you on Phil
- From: "Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 10:11:52 -0500
Philip,
Thank you for your constructive thoughts regarding JA.
You point out the importance of Grace as the something extra God
provides to enable us to accept the Truth. I agree, both as to its
necessity, and also to the fact that God withholds it from those who
really don't want the Truth (such as those who are "ever learning and
never coming to a knowledge of the Truth" 2 Tim 3:7). I believe Neville
also falls into this group, based at least on what I can figure from
what he has said.
I don't think I've wrongly judged JA. As I said "only he and God know".
But I am commenting on the objective implications of what he is saying.
Hopefully someday he'll become truly open to allowing God to give him
the Grace to see the real Truth. We can all pray for him.
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: Philip [mailto:joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 6:21 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Whos side are you on Phil
Thats OK Nick, but we differ in a couple of areas. Not seriously, but
important nonethe less, if we are ever going to help a separated brother
in Christ. .. I place these within your text, in red brackets. Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Niemann, Nicholas K. <mailto:NNiemann@xxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 6:05 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Whos side are you on Phil
Philip,
Thank you for your thoughts and for your interest in defending
JA.
A couple brief comments:
1. Through a combination of faith and reason, and a personal
relationship with Christ, I am CERTAIN that He founded the Catholic
Church and guaranteed it would officially teach infallibly.
{ The third condition which you list , (personal relationship
with Christ) I have never experienced. People are emotionally different,
but I place no value on faith based on emotion, unles one had a real
supernatural revelation, such as ascribed to Saul. Any other is pure
imagination. }
2. This doesn't mean that I (or any other true Catholic) gives
up thinking. It means instead that we can rely on the truth as
proclaimed by His Church as being the actual truth (rather than relying
on the views of any of us as fallen men).
{ I agree with the truth you state, but not the mechanism of
reliance without proof of reason. It is certain that the reason or
intellect will need something extra called GRACE to be able to accept
what the intellect or reason proposes. Grace being a freely given gift
from God. People whose state of mind /soul causes them to reject this
grace, will not see or comprehend what reason shows. }
3. If you believe in an all powerful God, then it follows
(logically) that He can see to it that a given authority (such as a
Pope) will only speak the Truth, when that person is speaking officially
on matters of faith and morals. This is an easy task for the Creator of
the Universe to cause to happen.
{ I do not think anyone here disputes that God can do whatever
He wants. The issue is, has he given this power to any man or group of
men above any other. Even though the logic of our proposition is
acceptable, this logic does not flow through to proving the Catholic
Church has this power. Everyone here accepts Scripture, or some
variation of it. Thus must our proof come from Scripture, Historical
evidence and reason. ie beyond reasonable doubt. }
4. Since God can do this, has He in fact done it. The Bible
(as well as Sacred Tradition) teach us that He has and continues to do
so. I have not attempted to prove this in these emails. I started on
this only to lay out a logical foundation, not to jump ahead and get
sidetracked by all the other issues that invariably get raised. I find
most non-Catholics always want to jump ahead rather than resolve one
issue first.
{ I guess we all, Catholics or not, tend to do that, Jump ahead
and get sidetracked. Sorry but I think I may be guilty of just that. Yet
this problem you raise still comes back to GRACE does it not.
If God doe not see any hope for them, they are going to remain
Muslims. That they were to mock and crucify Him, did not deter Him from
making the Sacrifice, even should only one man be saved. }
5. I'm not foolish enough to rely only on my own judgement
about various interpretations of what the Bible really means. We only
get one chance. After death, if we were wrong about what is needed for
salvation, then it's too late. The Catholic Church gives us 2000 years
of well written, well documented teachings, as well as ongoing
miraculous events, which cry out extremely loudly that this is where God
is directing us (Fatima, Lourdes, and Guadalupe are good examples, as
are the various Eucharistic miracles and miracously preserved bodies of
various Catholic saints) . In His love for us, God has overdone it in
showing us the truth of the Catholic Church. Only the obstinate fail to
see this (or to honestly look for it)--presumably due to some
combination of their pride, their arrogance, their desire to continue
in some sin the Catholic Church condemns (birth control and remarriage
are the common ones today), or their desire to serve their family or
personal lives, rather than to serve first the Christ they claim to
profess. Instead, they find comfort in lies and caricatures others
wrongly profess about the Catholic Church.
{ well said, and true. but I would not generalise to strongly.
Ja has admitted that he still seeks. }
6. I don't believe JA is "humbly dependent" on Holy Scripture.
I think he knows exactly how many times God has put someone or something
into the path of his life to steer him onto the right path and how many
times he's rejected the nudge due to various reasons, possibly some such
as the above (which only he and God know).
{ I hope you are wrong about Ja here. In making your belief
known are you not making a judgement? Many times for many people the
TRUTH just clicks into place. }
As Sr. Lucy of Fatima said, we live in a time of diabolical
disorientation.
{ You failed to complete this little historical fact. She said
this was a time of diabolical disorientation within the hierarchy of the
Church. Apostasy? This is a proof in a way. Only the true Church can
apostasise. An apostate cannot. A heretic is half way there. }
Hopefully others will start to see this.
Thanks again Philip.
Regards,
Nick.
And thanks to the list as well, for the ongoing discussions.
Perhaps the geocentrism subject has been worked as far as it can go?
Philip.
_____
From: Philip [mailto:joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 8:58 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Whos side are you on Phil
"Who's side are you on Phil?"
I am not writing this to knock Catholicism, or to deny Nick his
opinion, but I write it to defend Ja against the sophisticated argument
presented by Nick.
Nick said,
No, the line of reasoning doesn't apply to me. You rely on your
fallible self. I rely on a Church which claims God-given infallibility.
I would think Nick that you are still relying upon your own
fallible self in determining the infallibility of the Church,
specifically men. Popes or councils, Just as Ja is relying on his
fallible self in relying on Scripture.
Nick said,
I always find it interesting that non-Catholics accuse Catholics
of "arrogance" because we speak with certainty. It's not arrogance to
rely on someone other than yourself. It is arrogance to rely just on
yourself as you do.
I see the case being the same on both sides. You have neglected
to notice that Ja is humbly dependent upon Holy Scripture, which cannot
be called arrogance, as indeed neither can the Catholic. Both parties
are relying on the words of another, as each sees it. Both have
privateopinions based on the evidence available to each.
Why do you say you have "so far" rejected the Catholic position.
If you're so certain, why hedge.
.Who indeed can ever be absolutely certain? Faith is
attributable to many beliefs, even science. Save a direct revelation,
such as Scripture claims for Saul, and I claim from Fatima, (albiet
second hand) then there is no such thing as CERTAIN.
As to the rest of your statements (e.g. that Christ did not
establish the Catholic Church), thank you very much for your
OPINIONS---.But why should anyone rely on the opinions of someone who
admits he can be wrong on everything.
Thus might the worm turn. Nick also does not claim to be
infallible, but has formed an opinion based upon faith and reason alone.
You have not provided sufficient reason for another to accept your
opinions.
I am glad though that you have added your willingness to supply
the information privately that supports your opinions. I agree with you
that in the serious matter of salvation, one must not reject truth of
any sort based upon false information. Especially information that has
been presented by diabolically disoriented, disallusional or
disallusioned people who have allowed their emotions and reason to
succumb to hate, or even an accident of birth. An unfortunate common
human attribute.
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Niemann, Nicholas K. <mailto:NNiemann@xxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:02 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus
JA,
Thank you for your follow up.
No, the line of reasoning doesn't apply to me. You rely
on your fallible self. I rely on a Church which claims God-given
infallibility.
I always find it interesting that non-Catholics accuse
Catholics of "arrogance" because we speak with certainty. It's not
arrogance to rely on someone other than yourself. It is arrogance to
rely just on yourself as you do.
I'm not "reading your mind or using a crystal ball".
I'm just responding to the obvious from your own statements.
Why do you say you have "so far" rejected the Catholic
position. If you're so certain, why hedge.
Don't look to me to give you "reason to change [your]
mind". If you are serious, I'll provide you some credible things to
read for yourself. Others have made the case, so I'm not about to spend
all day writing emails.
As to the rest of your statements (e.g. that Christ did
not establish the Catholic Church), thank you very much for your
OPINIONS---.But why should anyone rely on the opinions of someone who
admits he can be wrong on everything.
By the way, remember that this began because I responded
to you.
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 7:09 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus
Thank you for your opinions. Of course, that's all
they are. Since you are fallible, you are capable of being wrong on
pretty much everything you profess. You really don't know for sure, do
you. Doesn't this line of reasoning apply to yourself?
So, I'm letting you in on something. Christ established
the Catholic Church and He assured it that the successors to St. Peter
would be infallible when speaking to the whole Church on matters of
faith and morals. Christ did not establish the catholic church, he
established his church and no-where can you demonstarte this promise of
infallibility of popes by christ's words.This same infallible Pope, in
passing down Christ's teachings, has proclaimed infallibly that there is
no salvation for those outside of the Catholic Church. This
proclamation by itsself proves you wrong
You can ignore all of this and, as they say, be fat,
dumb and happy in your uninformed, fallible beliefs. I am stunned by
your arrogance and judgement. Or you can with an open and honest truth
seeking heart and mind check out the actual claims made by the Catholic
Church, with a willingness to go where the truth actually leads you. I
have and I do, and so far have rejected it. It's your call. All I can
do is point out something you are clearly oblivious to. Are you reading
my mind or using a crystal ball? But realize, when you actually do face
Christ upon your death, and He tells you the same thing I've just told
you, you won't have the excuse of saying you had no way of knowing. You
have yet to tell me anything or give me any reason to change my mind on
this subject other than your own opinion. Which, by the way, is the same
standard by which you condem me. I do not condem you for being a
catholic christian. I assume you profess faith in Jesus Christ to save
your soul. Or do you profess proper participation in your church and
correct adherance to the popes' pronouncments to save you? One is
salvation by the grace of god and the other is salvation by works. I am
dependant on Jesus. What are you dependant on?
Why don't you practice what you preached to me: Pray to
God in Jesus' name and ask for guidance in this area. Then read your
bible, by yourself, just you and God and his word. The experience will
either challenge your beliefs or strengthen them.
Nick, all my questions above are retorical - no need to
respond unless you must. I don't really wish to continue this debate. I
am certainly not learning anything about geocentrism here.
To everyone else: I appologize. Here I am in the middle
of one of those Christian/Catholic arguements that have no place on this
forum. To make it worse, I even complained when others did it before me.
Sorry everyone.
_____
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions
<http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTE0bG4ybmRjBF9TAzk1OTQ5NjM2BHNlYwNtYW
lsdGFnBHNsawNhdWN0aW9ucw--/SIG=10vb8ief1/**http%3a//auctions.yahoo.com/>
- No fees. Bid on great items.
This message and any attachments are confidential, may contain privileged
information, and are intended solely for the recipient named above. If you are
not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivery to the named
recipient, you are notified that any review, distribution, dissemination or
copying is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, you should
notify the sender by return email and delete the message from your computer
system.
Other related posts:
