Have no dout you & Phil are are convinced beyond all repoof…...but as I said…. 1. Paul, Regergitaing popular ignorance ..the very ignorance that is inquestion, is not a demonstration of your argument.!? It certainly is not a demonstration of error in mine... What contitues motion and rotation is the question under scrutiny!?!?!??!?!…..berrycenter or not there is still only one common point of progressive radial orientaion ... 2. Real world not just imaginations shows only a prevention of rotation not a rotation in the plate tether ball and rotation & orbit table....ummmm.......there is only friction that can be demonstrated to prevent rotaion not any rotational force….this is experimetaly verified...but like so many things you guys prefer to imagine the opisite as "true reality" This goes for Mercury, the tether ball and all the atoms in that spining top too.. :-) 3. Experiment shows no rotation that can be isolated from the orbit…what you call a rotation is the orbit…only one progressive radial oreintaion to a common point that lay outside the body ....... In fact experiment shows that in order to sync the orbit and what you call the rotataion is to take away all additional motion and force beyond the orbit itself…. The Moon/ mercury…. is making a progressive radial orientation to a point that lay outside the diameter of the Moon/murcury . . . there is no difference between having that point inside or outside the diameter of the Moon/Murcury it is still only one motion. If it had a progressive radial orientation to some other point that lay internal to the Moon like its librations then that motion could be demonstrated without the other motion, ..punch line:..IT CANN'T . . . but simply because the common point lay outside the Moon does not necessitate a second common point . . . there is only one motion and revolution not two. ........but keep wishing guys.....if you wish hard enough and use more of your imagination then maybe you will be able to create whole new universes with whole new physics and leprecons, unicorns, dancing fairies and real Santa from the north pole..although I guess Santa does not count coz.. we all know he realty does exist in reality he is just magical and that is why we can’t observe him or distinguish him from the snow at the north pole… ....lol om allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sun Dec 14 23:42:54 2008 -- contains an illustration identified as "2 tether ball.png". In the text of that illustration, you state inter alia, "This is the same as Mercury's Gravitational lock. The tether is gravity. The tether prevents rotation of the Ball." There is no gravity lock. Mercury ROTATES on its axis once in 58.6467 days and REVOLVES about the Sun in 87.970 days. The ratio is precisely 1.5:1. The direction of these motions are both prograde so that the length of its day is 175.940 days which gives it a day of two -- Mercury -- years. Lower in your post we also have - Hint: as with the tether ball and the synchronous orbit of mercury.( it keeps the same side facing the sun at all times)....... As I've shown above, you are wrong -- it doesn't. On this matter -- listen to Philip. If he doesn't convince you of the error of your ways -- and indeed, even if he does -- some time in January of the New Year, I expect to present evidence which will positively pulverise your position. Paul D Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter now.