[geocentrism] Re: Trinity
- From: "philip madsen" <joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:50:53 +1000
but you cannot make Christ out to be a liar by claiming that my taking his
words as they are recorded is wrong because it does not fit in with your
three-gods idea. Neville..
but Neville there is but One God.. three persons..not three gods. If that is
a conundrum, it is meant to be one. Jesus said, I and the father are one..John
10-30. 1 John 5-7
7 And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and
the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Neville Jones
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 6:17 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Trinity
Jack,
It seems like my efforts are wasted in replying to you. Point number 1,
below, makes it clear that Jesus' straightforward statement is not, under any
stretch of the imagination, taken out of context. "I am going now to your
father and my father, to my God and your God." He could not have made this
simpler if he had taken a week to word it. You are holding fast to the trinity
idea, as Christians do, but you cannot make Christ out to be a liar by claiming
that my taking his words as they are recorded is wrong because it does not fit
in with your three-gods idea.
You haven't answered the question about pork, which was, if I remember
correctly, why do you eat it?
Neville.
-----Original Message-----
From: jack.lewis@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:39:41 +0100
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Trinity
Dear Neville,
I do not believe that you have read one word of my posting. You have
totally ignored the scriptures that do confirm the Trinity. Therefore it is
pointless in responding as there is nothing to respond to.
Regards
Jack
PS I'm still waiting for you to answer my question regarding how you see
salvation. You did promise to do this if I answered your question about pork.
----- Original Message -----
From: Neville Jones
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 7:33 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Trinity
Dear Jack,
Since the subject is the idea of a trinity, I think it appropriate that
I make three responses:
1. The scripture I quoted to you is perfectly straightforward and simple.
If this scripture does not stand on its own two feet, so to speak, then I don't
know what would. Context therefore does not enter into this equation. You are,
of course, saying that the scripture contradicts others and therefore you claim
this as your definition of context. This is not normal linguistic context. It
is a paradigm conflict. I, of course, agree that it contradicts the ruling
"Christian" paradigm, which is why I quoted it: The idea of Jesus being God is
explicitly denied by Jesus' own words.
2. The ancient idea of a trinity, which well pre-dates the time of
Christ, is also denied by Jesus himself when he states, "Why do you call me
good? There is none good but God." If Jesus were God, then he would tell us so,
he would not deny it, which would be a lie in this case. God does not lie.
However, people and the Devil do lie, and for particular motives, which brings
me to the third point:
3. I did, for a short time, have a confusion over Elohim and Jahweh (or
Jehovah), as you do now, but thankfully I quickly saw through where a large
amount of text written in Hebrew actually originated from. In this regard, I
recommend that you seriously study the excellent work by Prof. Richard
Friedmann, "Who Wrote The Bible?" You will find it on Amazon at a very
reasonable price. It is a good starting point for researching a whole area
regarding the so-called "chosen ones."
Regards,
Neville.
-----Original Message-----
From: jack.lewis@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:13:16 +0100
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] The Trinity
----- Original Message -----
From: Neville Jones
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:47 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Malleus Maleficarum
Dear Jack,
Your bible does not have, "I am going now to my father and your
father, to my God and your God" in it?
Which bible is that, then?
Dear Neville,
I'm sorry I have taken a while to reply to your posting but I had
problems loading my Bible program onto my new computer.
In answer to your question above, The New King James Bible Jn 20:17
which of course you already knew.
I understand perfectly why you asked this question because on the
face of it it would appear that Jesus cannot be God. However you have taken
this scripture completely out of Biblical context with no reference to other
scriptures that would overwhelmingly support the doctrine of the Trinity. As I
have said in previous postings I can only quote from a Bible, that most of
which, you have rejected.
If God is who He says He is in the scriptures then we must conclude
that there are aspects of His being that are beyond the grasp of human
reasoning. If we were able to 'understand God, then He would not be God and we
would.
This is stated in Isa 55:8-9
For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,
says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways
higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Below are a number of scriptures that will confirm the existence of
the Trinity.
There are six possible permutations stating the three persons of the
Trinity in the N.T.
Father, Son, Spirit - Mat 28:19 and Jn 5:7
Father, Spirit, Son - 1 Pet 1:2; Tit 3:4-6; Eph 3:14-17; Rom 5:5-6;
Rev 1:4-5
Son, Spirit, Father - Heb 9:14; 1Cor 6:11; Eph 2:18
Son, Father, Spirit - 2Cor 13-14; Jn 14-16; 1Pet 3:18
Spirit, Father, Son, - 1Cor 12:4-6; Eph 4:4-6
Spirit, Son, Father - Jude 20-21; Rom 8:9; Acts 7:55; Eph 5:18-20;
1Cor 12:4-6
Within a few verses of Gen 1:1 we find God speaking in a plurality
using plural pronouns.
Gen 1:26
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our
likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of
the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing
that creeps on the earth.”
In Isa 6:8 the phrase '...who will go for Us' some people consider
that 'Us' it is reference to God and angels which might be remotely possible
but it is definitely not an acceptable way of handling the use of the personal
pronoun in Gen 1:26.
Gen 3:22
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one
of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also
of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
Gen 11:7
7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that
they may not understand one anothers speech.”
Jn 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
Ask yourself this question, "Of whom does this refer?"
Rev 1:17-18
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid
His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the
Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive
forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Now ask yourself the same question about this scripture.
Rev 22:12-16
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me,
to give to every one according to his work.
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the
First and the Last.”
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have
the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and
murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things
in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and
Morning Star.”
For further clarification read Rev 22:20
Rev 22:20
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming
quickly.”Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
In Rev 1:17-18 Jesus refers to Himself as, 'the First and the
Last'...'He who lives and was dead,' this explains the meaning of, 'I am the
Alpha and the Omega', "The Beginning and the End" and "The First and the Last".
Now look at Is 44:6, 48:12 and asks yourself again, "Of whom does
this refer?"
Is 44:6
6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the
Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Is 48:12
12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am
the First, I am also the Last.
Rev 1:8 connects Jesus with God, not only that but 'Lord God' (NIV).
Rev 1:8
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says
the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
In Rev 21:6 'The one who sits on the Throne, according to Rev 4, is a
reference to God Himself and also a similar description to Jesus in the first
and last chapters.
Rev 21:6
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life
freely to him who thirsts.
Those who think that Jesus was created being should consider rather
than eternally existing:
Mic 5:2
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the
thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler
in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.”
Then:
Mat 2:5-6
5 So they said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is
written by the prophet:
6 ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, Are not the least
among the rulers of Judah; For out of you shall come a Ruler Who will shepherd
My people Israel.’ ”
Followed by:
Mat 1: 22-23
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was
spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin
shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,”
which is translated, “God with us.”
Greek scholars are united in the understanding that the use of the
imperfect tense in Jn 1:1
Jn 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
indicates a 'timeless existence' of the Word (Jesus).
Col 1:15-16 implies that Jesus created 'all things'.
Col 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that
are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or
principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
In Is 6:1-13 It is not difficult to see that the person Isaiah saw
was God (Jehovah). However in verse 8 God asks Isaiah "Whom shall I send, and
who will go for Us?" Who is the 'Us' God was referring to?
In Jn 12:41 he tells exactly who Isaiah saw.
Jn 12:41
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of
Him.
Is 40:3 is talking about John the Baptist making way for the LORD
(Jehovah) and confirmed in Mat 3:3.
Is 40:3
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of
the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.
Mat 3:3
3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:
“The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; Make
His paths straight.’ ”
The Jews considered that Jn 10:28 was a blasphemous statement
Jn 10;28
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
But His right to say it is followed in Jn 10:29-30.
Jn 10:29-30.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and
no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30 I and My Father are one.”
Followed by action from the Jews in:
Jn 10:31
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
Ps 45:6-7 shows God portrayed as addressing the Son (Jesus) and makes
the statement "Your throne, O God".
Ps 45:6-7
6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A sceptre of
righteousness is the sceptre of Your kingdom.
The writer of Heb 1:8-13 quotes from Ps 45:6-7, Ps 102:25-27 and Ps
110:1 and shows that ElOHIM, JEHOVAH and ADONAI are also Jesus.
Finally if more proof is needed;
1 In Philip 2:9-11 "the name that is above every name" is Lord
(Jehovah)
2 In Rom 10:9-13 the word 'For' links these verses closely
together thus the 'Lord' of verse 13 must be the 'Lord' of 9 and 12.
3 In Heb 1:10 God address the Son as 'Lord' in a quote from Ps
102:25 compared with Ps 102:24 where the person addressed is called God.
4 In 1Pet 2:3-4 is almost an exact quote from Ps 34:8 where 'Lord'
is Jehovah and from 1Pet 2:4-8, the 'Lord' in verse 3 is Jesus.
5 In 1 Pet 3:14-15 is a clear reference to Isa 8:12-13, where the
one who is regarded as 'hallow' is Jehovah.
6 In 1Cor 8:6 and Eph 4:5, it is Jesus who is spoken of as 'one
Lord'. Compare this with Rom 10:12, 1Cor 12:5, Deu 6:4 and Mark 12:29.
You will see from this that the O.T. and the N.T., as well as
separately, are linked together by a Trinitarian doctrine.
You have to ask yourself Neville why you do not see it? Just because
a blind man cannot see a picture on a wall does not mean that it is not there.
Is 6:9-10,
9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but
do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And
shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And
understand with their heart, And return and be healed.”
Jn 12:39-40,
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest
they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts
and turn, So that I should heal them.”
Jn 12:37-38
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did
not believe in Him,
38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which
he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the
Lord been revealed?”
The only other excuse you have for rejecting the Trinity, apart from
that immediately above, would be your wholesale rejection of all the scriptures
that confirm the Trinity.
regards
Jack
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