Sent: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:39:41 +0100
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: TrinityDear Neville,I do not believe that you have read one word of my posting. You have totally ignored the scriptures that do confirm the Trinity. Therefore it is pointless in responding as there is nothing to respond to.RegardsJackPS I'm still waiting for you to answer my question regarding how you see salvation. You did promise to do this if I answered your question about pork.----- Original Message -----From: Neville JonesSent: Monday, July 23, 2007 7:33 PMSubject: [geocentrism] Re: TrinityDear Jack,
Since the subject is the idea of a trinity, I think it appropriate that I make three responses:
1. The scripture I quoted to you is perfectly straightforward and simple. If this scripture does not stand on its own two feet, so to speak, then I don't know what would. Context therefore does not enter into this equation. You are, of course, saying that the scripture contradicts others and therefore you claim this as your definition of context. This is not normal linguistic context. It is a paradigm conflict. I, of course, agree that it contradicts the ruling "Christian" paradigm, which is why I quoted it: The idea of Jesus being God is explicitly denied by Jesus' own words.
2. The ancient idea of a trinity, which well pre-dates the time of Christ, is also denied by Jesus himself when he states, "Why do you call me good? There is none good but God." If Jesus were God, then he would tell us so, he would not deny it, which would be a lie in this case. God does not lie. However, people and the Devil do lie, and for particular motives, which brings me to the third point:
3. I did, for a short time, have a confusion over Elohim and Jahweh (or Jehovah), as you do now, but thankfully I quickly saw through where a large amount of text written in Hebrew actually originated from. In this regard, I recommend that you seriously study the excellent work by Prof. Richard Friedmann, "Who Wrote The Bible?" You will find it on Amazon at a very reasonable price. It is a good starting point for researching a whole area regarding the so-called "chosen ones."
Sent: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:13:16 +0100
Subject: [geocentrism] The Trinity----- Original Message -----From: Neville JonesSent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:47 PMSubject: [geocentrism] Re: Malleus MaleficarumDear Jack,
Your bible does not have, "I am going now to my father and your father, to my God and your God" in it?
Which bible is that, then?Dear Neville,I'm sorry I have taken a while to reply to your posting but I had problems loading my Bible program onto my new computer.In answer to your question above, The New King James Bible Jn 20:17 which of course you already knew.I understand perfectly why you asked this question because on the face of it it would appear that Jesus cannot be God. However you have taken this scripture completely out of Biblical context with no reference to other scriptures that would overwhelmingly support the doctrine of the Trinity. As I have said in previous postings I can only quote from a Bible, that most of which, you have rejected.If God is who He says He is in the scriptures then we must conclude that there are aspects of His being that are beyond the grasp of human reasoning. If we were able to 'understand God, then He would not be God and we would.This is stated in Isa 55:8-9For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Below are a number of scriptures that will confirm the existence of the Trinity.There are six possible permutations stating the three persons of the Trinity in the N.T.Father, Son, Spirit - Mat 28:19 and Jn 5:7Father, Spirit, Son - 1 Pet 1:2; Tit 3:4-6; Eph 3:14-17; Rom 5:5-6; Rev 1:4-5Son, Spirit, Father - Heb 9:14; 1Cor 6:11; Eph 2:18Son, Father, Spirit - 2Cor 13-14; Jn 14-16; 1Pet 3:18Spirit, Father, Son, - 1Cor 12:4-6; Eph 4:4-6Spirit, Son, Father - Jude 20-21; Rom 8:9; Acts 7:55; Eph 5:18-20; 1Cor 12:4-6Within a few verses of Gen 1:1 we find God speaking in a plurality using plural pronouns.Gen 1:2626 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”In Isa 6:8 the phrase '...who will go for Us' some people consider that 'Us' it is reference to God and angels which might be remotely possible but it is definitely not an acceptable way of handling the use of the personal pronoun in Gen 1:26.Gen 3:2222 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—Gen 11:77 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one anothers speech.”1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Rev 1:17-1817 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.Now ask yourself the same question about this scripture.Rev 22:12-1612 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”For further clarification read Rev 22:20Rev 22:2020 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!In Rev 1:17-18 Jesus refers to Himself as, 'the First and the Last'...'He who lives and was dead,' this explains the meaning of, 'I am the Alpha and the Omega', "The Beginning and the End" and "The First and the Last".Now look at Is 44:6, 48:12 and asks yourself again, "Of whom does this refer?"Is 44:66 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.Is 48:1212 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.Rev 1:8In Rev 21:6 'The one who sits on the Throne, according to Rev 4, is a reference to God Himself and also a similar description to Jesus in the first and last chapters.Rev 21:6Mic 5:22 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.”Mat 2:5-65 So they said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet:6 ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, Are not the least among the rulers of Judah; For out of you shall come a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.’ ”Followed by:Mat 1: 22-2322 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”Col 1:15-16 implies that Jesus created 'all things'.Col 1:15-1615 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.In Is 6:1-13 It is not difficult to see that the person Isaiah saw was God (Jehovah). However in verse 8 God asks Isaiah "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Who is the 'Us' God was referring to?In Jn 12:41 he tells exactly who Isaiah saw.Jn 12:41Is 40:3 is talking about John the Baptist making way for the LORD (Jehovah) and confirmed in Mat 3:3.Is 40:33 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.’ ”The Jews considered that Jn 10:28 was a blasphemous statementJn 10;2828 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.But His right to say it is followed in Jn 10:29-30.Jn 10:29-30.29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.Followed by action from the Jews in:Jn 10:31Ps 45:6-7 shows God portrayed as addressing the Son (Jesus) and makes the statement "Your throne, O God".Ps 45:6-76 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Your kingdom.The writer of Heb 1:8-13 quotes from Ps 45:6-7, Ps 102:25-27 and Ps 110:1 and shows that ElOHIM, JEHOVAH and ADONAI are also Jesus.Finally if more proof is needed;1 In Philip 2:9-11 "the name that is above every name" is Lord (Jehovah)2 In Rom 10:9-13 the word 'For' links these verses closely together thus the 'Lord' of verse 13 must be the 'Lord' of 9 and 12.3 In Heb 1:10 God address the Son as 'Lord' in a quote from Ps 102:25 compared with Ps 102:24 where the person addressed is called God.4 In 1Pet 2:3-4 is almost an exact quote from Ps 34:8 where 'Lord' is Jehovah and from 1Pet 2:4-8, the 'Lord' in verse 3 is Jesus.5 In 1 Pet 3:14-15 is a clear reference to Isa 8:12-13, where the one who is regarded as 'hallow' is Jehovah.6 In 1Cor 8:6 and Eph 4:5, it is Jesus who is spoken of as 'one Lord'. Compare this with Rom 10:12, 1Cor 12:5, Deu 6:4 and Mark 12:29.You will see from this that the O.T. and the N.T., as well as separately, are linked together by a Trinitarian doctrine.You have to ask yourself Neville why you do not see it? Just because a blind man cannot see a picture on a wall does not mean that it is not there.Is 6:9-10,9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’10 “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed.”Jn 12:39-40,39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”The only other excuse you have for rejecting the Trinity, apart from that immediately above, would be your wholesale rejection of all the scriptures that confirm the Trinity.regardsJack
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