[geocentrism] Re: Three days and three nights
- From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 01:35:17 -0700 (PDT)
(P) That is totally unreasonable and irrational Allen
(A)How is that unreasonable and irrational? NO?.The reasoning of men in
foolishness. Your argument has no basis in scripture. You are telling me how
you feel about it. God said believe and obey, nothing about interpret. Man has
said well he really didn?t mean it that way. The burden of proof is on men, not
me. God said it, knew exactly what he was saying, when he said it, knows
exactly what it sounds like in every language on the earth. God is giving
everyone a choice, to accept it as a child or trust in yourselves or someone
else. That seems to be man's preferred method, but it is not God's.
(P) It has to be taken as conditional to every other statement of God in His
book.
(A)There is nothing in the context or in all of scripture that states or
indicates that does not mean exactly what it says, on the contrary I have
demonstrated from scripture, just the opposite is true. I have shown you
several scriptures that make plain statements. You can not provide even one
that is remotely contrary to this position. That should tell you something.
Other wise I agree it must be taken with every other statement?..but you
haven?t made any connection with any scripture?. just how you feel about it,
which is not relevant. The reason is because your position is scriptural
unfounded. I am not trying to be demeaning just making a point?? The words used
in this scripture are everyday words that get used everyday and the sentence
structure is common as well. It is funny that people seem to be able to
understand these kinds of things in their everyday life, but when it comes to
scripture ???.it?s all very complicated. There is nothing difficult about this
scripture
, except
the willingness to accept it as is.
1 Corinthians 3:18. Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be
wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19. For the
wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches
the wise in their own craftiness''; 20. and again, "The Lord knows the thoughts
of the wise, that they are futile.'' 21. Therefore let no one glory in men?????.
(P) ??. where does the word of God stand in value with the vast majority of
men, if taken as a whole throughout history since creation, who cannot or never
could read?
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel
to every creature. ??.
1 Peter 3:15. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to
give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you,
with meekness and fear; ????..
That is our responsibility to see to that problem?....
Matthew 7:7. "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock,
and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks
finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened??. 14. "Because narrow is the
gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find
it. ????
If they don?t seek it why do you think they would be able to find it?
If you need Wisdom ask God?.but you only know this from scripture????
James 1:5. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all
liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6. But let him ask
in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven
and tossed by the wind. 7. For let not that man suppose that he will receive
anything from the Lord;
he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. ???????
But you should make sure you know what you are talking about??????.
James 3: 1. My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we
shall receive a stricter judgment
Philip <joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:Allen said:
"When he said he ordained them and do not resist them. Those who say it means
anything other than what it plainly says have a burden of proof on them to
prove that it dose not mean exactly that! "
The point being you can't prove that because all you have is what you have been
given including the text. The text states that all the answers including how to
read and understand the text are found in and only in the text not in mans
ability to reason or anywhere else. end quote.
That is totally unreasonable and irrational Allen. You cannot take text out of
context, as though it was not conditional upon all of the complete book of God.
The simple sentence standing alone certainly may be absolute , but it cannot be
taken standing alone, or even in the context of the paragraph, or even the
chapter from which it came.
It has to be taken as conditional to every other statement of God in His book.
Thus this simple statement then becomes a very difficult exercise in reasoning
ability, depending upon how well is the readers knowledge of all of scripture.
This latter alone is beyond the capability of most ordinary men. Jesus spoke
His parables plainly yet His disciples had to have it explained. I even need to
have His explanations explained.
More importantly, where does the word of God stand in value with the vast
majority of men, if taken as a whole throughout history since creation, who
cannot or never could read? Compulsory education is an evil figment of this
modern world, and probably the main cause of its impending destruction.
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Daves
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 8:58 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Three days and three nights
Fair enough.......... However, the point I was making is your argument is
emotional and is not one found in scripture it is the reasoning of man. Here is
what I mean.... how bad Hitler was has noting to do with whether or not God and
the scripture you have in your hand mean exactly what it looks like at face
value.... When he said he ordained them and do not resist them. Those who say
it means anything other than what it plainly says have a burden of proof on
them to prove that it dose not mean exactly that! The point being you can't
prove that because all you have is what you have been given including the text.
The text states that all the answers including how to read and understand the
text are found in and only in the text not in mans ability to reason or
anywhere else. There is obviously a "correct way" to read scripture. Scripture
itself states that it is not found in man's reasoning abilities or any other
place except in the text itself and not to look beyond it. And
e
veryone
will have to determine for themselves if they will accept only and only what
God states or their own abilities at interpreting what he said. Nothing that I
have stated has been contrary to scripture and only by scripture will anyone
know for sure if what I or anyone else says it true or not. That is the
standard and choice everyone has been given. I could be wrong and If someone
can demonstrate from scripture, not their reasoning or ideas , but scripture
then I will accept it as so.
Allen
"Dr. Neville Jones" wrote:I do not see that what "most people" do is of any
concern to me. I do not wish to explain away what I don't understand. If I
don't understand something, then I will say so. I also do not seek to blame God
for evil, nor for anything else.
You say that "Hitler only slaughtered 6 million Jews ..." Are we talking of
numbers here? This is 6 million too many.
Your understanding, then, is that God did indeed place Hitler, Lenin and co.,
in power. You are entitled to believe this if you wish, but I do not share your
view. That does not mean that I do not understand the Scripture, whereas you
do. It means that we have differing understandings. One of us is wrong, and
that man might well be you.
"Plain text," as you put it, may not always be quite so "plain" as you think.
Neville.
Allen Daves wrote:
(N) Surely you are not saying that God placed Hitler, Lenin, Pol Pot, Amin,
Mugabe, Stalin, Bush, Blair, etc., in power? Do we not need to understand what
"the powers that be are ordained of God" means, rather than just take it as it
first appears?
(A) Surely you are not saying that these governments were less righteous than
any of the developing countries whose governments allow the murder of 46
million babies a year,126000 per day in the US alone since 1976... 40 million.
This is just the Abortion murders..Do you really think Hitler or Paul pot were
in any less of God's favor. .......Hitler only slaughtered 6 million Jews and
he didn't do all the killing in the war...How is tolerating them any less
Culpable. Most people who use this kind of argument just want to either explain
away what they don't understand . or Just want to blame God for the evil..
..
The short answer to your emotional argument is YES!...Why....
Romans 8: 28. And we know that ALL THINGS work together FOR THE GOOD TO THEM
THAT LOVE GOD, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Matthew 13:41. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall
gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do
iniquity;.....Until then God is not forcing evil from the earth. he is giving
everyone the opportunity to make a choice trust him or else, which comes
latter.....
MY PERSONAL FAVORITE ...the one that gives me the most comfort
2Corinthians 10: 6. And having in a readiness to REVENGE all disobedience, WHEN
YOUR OBEDIENCE IS FULFILLED............Romans 13:19. Beloved, do not avenge
yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is
Mine, I will repay,'' says the Lord. .......... People are so worried about the
evil of others...the speck in Hitters eye while ignoring the plank in our
own... this argument does not invalidate the plain word of God, who said He
ordained them or what ever your translation states.......It is not our problem
to worry about the governments our job is.....
Matthew 28:18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER is given
unto me in heaven and in earth. 19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy
Ghost: 20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen......God is
working his plan not mine or yours.. I don't understand everything but if I did
then I would be God. This is not my place, my place is to trust in him and his
word. He will take care of Hitter, Paul pot, us and the abortionist too....in
his time, his way, not ours. How is tolerating them any less Culpable. Most
people who use this kind of argument just want to either explain away what they
don't understand . ......
2 Peter 2:9. Then the Lord knows how to "deliver the godly" out of temptations
and to "reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment," 10. and
especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and
despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed; they are not afraid to
speak evil of dignitaries, 11. whereas angels, who are greater in power and
might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord. 12. But
these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, "speak evil
of the things they do not understand," and will utterly perish in their own
corruption, .....
.......... or Just want to blame God for the evil.
(N)How about different translations of the same Scriptures? Do we try and
understand them, or do we just read them? When translating from one language to
another, it is the meaning that is of the utmost importance, not the direct,
word-for-word translation.
(A)The scripture says the same thing in your native language as it does in the
original...that is not to say that they all use the same words but the context
of all Scripture will yield exactly the same meaning. And if it does not, then
it is not the word of God it would then be a product of man..This is only a
problem for those who put there trust in man to have preserved his word. Mine
is in God, I believe that he has preserved it. Those who try to convince you
other wise do not know anything about translations or scripture! Every single
verse we have is handed down there are no originals of any scripture or letters
anywhere. I challenge anyone to show me one. There are however a lot of people
trying to prop them selves up as learned scholarly individuals.saying that well
it doesn't mean that, or it rely means something other than what it plainly
states.... Who told them that? ...It was not God, He never told anyone that..
..That is the pure and vain imagination of men!..
..
But
here is what he did say...Galatians 1: 8. But even if we, or an angel from
heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let
him be accursed ....Now how can you do that if it cannot be understood and he
tells you not to think beyond what is written?...Only if your faith is in God
providence absolutely..... Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through
philosophy and EMPTY DECEIT, according to the tradition of men, according to
the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. .... you can
find anyone claiming to be Christian who will take any position you want and
tell you and mean it that they are following scripture... God made man gave man
language, gave man the ability to read, what he wrote... He knows exactly what
it means to you and me and only by faith in God can you call ANY scripture
anywhere God's word. I challenge anyone to show me where other than by faith.
The ONLY problem is not my interpretation or yours or "ho
w
do I
read it" .. Only will you accept what he plainly said or will you chose to
adopt some methodology or hermeneutic not even mentioned in scripture, as the
"correct way" for understanding? ...... The Test? Show me where I have not
spoken as the oracles of God or where God said that he did not intend it that
way. If you can not do so, the problem is not with how to read scripture, it is
with men's willingness to accept ONLY what it says, because all provisions of
scripture are/were provide by God. Otherwise who is to say what is and is not
scripture? And any interpretation will do, I mean what's the standard?...
People have it and the standard! Tey chose the "reasoning of men" over plain
text.
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