[geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus

  • From: j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:51:21 -0700 (PDT)

Allen,  your replies may be too long, but on the other hand I agree with you. 
Attributing some books of the bible to "the evil one" is a new and extreme 
position to take and needs alot of evidence to even begin to discuss such a 
claim. In terms of the Law, God's morality for us never ceases or changes, but 
the agreement between God and the Jews is over, Christians are his new chosen 
people (not to say that god has no futher plans for the jews). As for 
authority, all is given to Jesus and he is the head of his church, which 
happens to include all believers. There is no institution of men that holds 
this place of authority. The eyes and heart should be focused on Jesus and not 
on earhtly things, like any particular church.
 
JA

Philip <joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Allen, I respect your zeal, but please, if you need to press a winning point, 
it surely would if God is with you, fit in a single line or two. 
 
I agree with Neville. If it is too full the letter cannot be read. Truth is 
like an axiom. a few words suffices .. I have to confess that your long winded 
replys to Nevilles simple questions or statements is more damaging to your 
position than you realise. 
 
I believe Neville is wrong.  I see it as a case of faith without government. or 
authority.
 
I cannot believe that Jesus would make the ultimate sacrifice for all of 
mankind and leave it to be debated by all and sundry , with all the confusion 
that presents. Surely a structure of authority had to be maintained. Right till 
the end He respected the authority of both Rome and the Sanhindrin. 
 
Philip. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Allen Daves 
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:33 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus



 

( N) Since Yeshuwa' says therefore in verse 19, he must still be talking of the 
law that he mentioned in verse 18. And what is he saying? Not to break even the 
least commandment of the law. Not a "new" law. He does not mention a "new" law. 
He states "the law," in verse 18, and "therefore ... [do not] break one of 
these least commandments" in verse 19.

( A) 1. The law was not done away with until AFTER HE FULLFILLED IT ...I have 
already demonstrated via His own words and scripture that this has been 
accomplished.

2.You quoted v 19 ..you missed v 1-16 (kingdom of Heaven) & 21-34(kingdom of 
Heaven) these are commandments he is talking about..."You have heard it said", 
"BUT I SAY".............the law of Moses v law of Christ, on the heart. v 19 is 
talking about the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN , found in 1-18 & 21-34, not the law of 
Moses. The Kingdom came with Christ, who was to FULFILL. You have no 
understanding of the kingdom.



3.When Did he offer the Blood of the NEW COVENENT........Answer........Mathew 
26:28. "For this is My blood of the NEW COVENANT, which is shed for many for 
the remission of sins. This is after he make the statement about "UNTILL ALL IS 
FULLFILLED".....why.......... HE HAD NOT FULLFILLED IT YET!... Fulfillment came 
with the cross and confirmation of the new covenant, just as prophesied and 
Luke points this out and states.... Luke 21:22??that all things which are 
written may be fulfilled.

4.You still have not addressed the new covenant , kingdom or the new priesthood 
or how you plan to keep the law..... You are so fond of quoting Mat 5:19 and 
using that to justify your position .. Read it again?. "Whoever therefore 
breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be 
called least in the kingdom of heaven;. .. If that is talking about the 
necessity for keeping the OT law, and under penalty of hell, at that?What is 
the kingdom of Heaven??....How do you plan on keeping the WHOLE, ALL of the 
law? When is your next sacrifice or trip to Jerusalem, or where is your priest 
and the alter and temple to perform the rituals for you necessary to keep the 
law? You missed the whole thing, looking for somthing that Jesus stated 
plainly,has already taken place. 

( N) Jeremiah31:31 the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a NEW 
COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. NOT 
ACCORDING to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took 
them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they 
brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33. But THIS SHALL 
BE THE COVENANT that I will make with the house of Israel;....I will put my law 
in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and 
they shall be my people. .............Allen, this is still in the future: 

( A) Wrong, You did not get that from scripture, Jesus Benchmarks theses events 
Dan benchmarks these events, Revelation benchmarks these events. I showed you 
verbatim from the L& P a, Jesus remarks and revelation that this is exactly 
what Jesus stated in terms such as "NOW IS" and "THIS GENERATION" and you don?t 
believe him just like the Jews did not believe him then.. You have no concept 
of what revelation is talking about because you have not learned "not to think 
beyond what is written".. You keep looking outside scripture for?? not 
understanding, but rather you are looking for "interpretations", but not from 
scripture..? "forever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the 
truth." 

 

( N) John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and NOW IS, when the true worshippers shall 
worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to 
worship him. ???"True worshippers," yes, but this is not necessarily the "house 
or Israel."

( A) Where did you get that from??. Those who are going to heaven or are 
childeren of God are not necessarily true WORSHIPERS?.That is ridiculous??The 
definition of the term worship includes OBEYING! Everyone does not have to 
obey????Mat 7: 21. "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the 
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Secondly, 
You have no understanding of what the house of Israel is, because you blow 
Jesus of, you blow Paul off and any other scripture that does not suit this 
twisting of scripture.Mat 3:9  "and do not think to say to yourselves, `We have 
Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children 
to Abraham from these stones. 10.  "And even now the ax is laid to the root of 
the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and 
thrown into the fire. 

Allen

 


"Dr. Neville Jones" <ntj005@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

My replies in green:
 
Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
 
(N) All you have to do to convince me on the "old" law being "done away with" 
is to quote me a Hebrew scripture where Our Father states this. But you cannot. 
.
 
( A) Jeremiah31:31 the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a NEW 
COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. NOT 
ACCORDING to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took 
them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they 
brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33. But THIS SHALL 
BE THE COVENANT that I will make with the house of Israel;....I will put my law 
in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and 
they shall be my people. 
 
Allen, this is still in the future:
 
(Rev 21:1 KJV)  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven 
and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
 
(Rev 21:2 KJV)  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from 
God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 
(Rev 21:3 KJV)  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the 
tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be 
his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
 
(Rev 21:4 KJV)  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there 
shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any 
more pain: for the former things are passed away.
 
Jesus refers to this in John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and NOW IS, when the 
true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the 
Father seeketh such to worship him. ???..
 
"True worshippers," yes, but this is not necessarily the "house or Israel."
 
(N) (Mat 5:18 KJV) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one 
jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 
"Till all be fulfilled." "Till heaven and earth pass [away]." This scripture 
alone establishes my claim and is only contradicted by Saul of Tarsus and his 
followers
 
( A) "TILL ALL IS FULLFILED" ??You keep misssing the fact that all things HAVE 
BEEN FULLFIELD (See Above scripture ref )?.Jesus stated that he came to do just 
that?Mat 5: 17 I am not come to destroy, BUT TO FULLFILL and again THIS 
GENERATION SHALL NOT PASSTILL ALL IS FULFILLED????? If you had not missed it 
then you would not be trying to use that verse to support a position directly 
contradictory to the teaching of Jesus and the Prophets?. 
 
Okay, let us examine which understanding of Matthew 5 is the correct one, yours 
or mine:
 
(Mat 5:18 KJV)  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot 
or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(Mat 5:19 KJV)  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least 
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the 
kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be 
called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
Since Yeshuwa' says therefore in verse 19, he must still be talking of the law 
that he mentioned in verse 18. And what is he saying? Not to break even the 
least commandment of the law. Not a "new" law. He does not mention a "new" law. 
He states "the law," in verse 18, and "therefore ... [do not] break one of 
these least commandments" in verse 19.
 
Neville.


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