Allen, your replies may be too long, but on the other hand I agree with you. Attributing some books of the bible to "the evil one" is a new and extreme position to take and needs alot of evidence to even begin to discuss such a claim. In terms of the Law, God's morality for us never ceases or changes, but the agreement between God and the Jews is over, Christians are his new chosen people (not to say that god has no futher plans for the jews). As for authority, all is given to Jesus and he is the head of his church, which happens to include all believers. There is no institution of men that holds this place of authority. The eyes and heart should be focused on Jesus and not on earhtly things, like any particular church. JA Philip <joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Allen, I respect your zeal, but please, if you need to press a winning point, it surely would if God is with you, fit in a single line or two. I agree with Neville. If it is too full the letter cannot be read. Truth is like an axiom. a few words suffices .. I have to confess that your long winded replys to Nevilles simple questions or statements is more damaging to your position than you realise. I believe Neville is wrong. I see it as a case of faith without government. or authority. I cannot believe that Jesus would make the ultimate sacrifice for all of mankind and leave it to be debated by all and sundry , with all the confusion that presents. Surely a structure of authority had to be maintained. Right till the end He respected the authority of both Rome and the Sanhindrin. Philip. ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Daves To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:33 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus ( N) Since Yeshuwa' says therefore in verse 19, he must still be talking of the law that he mentioned in verse 18. And what is he saying? Not to break even the least commandment of the law. Not a "new" law. He does not mention a "new" law. He states "the law," in verse 18, and "therefore ... [do not] break one of these least commandments" in verse 19. ( A) 1. The law was not done away with until AFTER HE FULLFILLED IT ...I have already demonstrated via His own words and scripture that this has been accomplished. 2.You quoted v 19 ..you missed v 1-16 (kingdom of Heaven) & 21-34(kingdom of Heaven) these are commandments he is talking about..."You have heard it said", "BUT I SAY".............the law of Moses v law of Christ, on the heart. v 19 is talking about the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN , found in 1-18 & 21-34, not the law of Moses. The Kingdom came with Christ, who was to FULFILL. You have no understanding of the kingdom. 3.When Did he offer the Blood of the NEW COVENENT........Answer........Mathew 26:28. "For this is My blood of the NEW COVENANT, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. This is after he make the statement about "UNTILL ALL IS FULLFILLED".....why.......... HE HAD NOT FULLFILLED IT YET!... Fulfillment came with the cross and confirmation of the new covenant, just as prophesied and Luke points this out and states.... Luke 21:22??that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 4.You still have not addressed the new covenant , kingdom or the new priesthood or how you plan to keep the law..... You are so fond of quoting Mat 5:19 and using that to justify your position .. Read it again?. "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;. .. If that is talking about the necessity for keeping the OT law, and under penalty of hell, at that?What is the kingdom of Heaven??....How do you plan on keeping the WHOLE, ALL of the law? When is your next sacrifice or trip to Jerusalem, or where is your priest and the alter and temple to perform the rituals for you necessary to keep the law? You missed the whole thing, looking for somthing that Jesus stated plainly,has already taken place. ( N) Jeremiah31:31 the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. NOT ACCORDING to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33. But THIS SHALL BE THE COVENANT that I will make with the house of Israel;....I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. .............Allen, this is still in the future: ( A) Wrong, You did not get that from scripture, Jesus Benchmarks theses events Dan benchmarks these events, Revelation benchmarks these events. I showed you verbatim from the L& P a, Jesus remarks and revelation that this is exactly what Jesus stated in terms such as "NOW IS" and "THIS GENERATION" and you don?t believe him just like the Jews did not believe him then.. You have no concept of what revelation is talking about because you have not learned "not to think beyond what is written".. You keep looking outside scripture for?? not understanding, but rather you are looking for "interpretations", but not from scripture..? "forever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." ( N) John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and NOW IS, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. ???"True worshippers," yes, but this is not necessarily the "house or Israel." ( A) Where did you get that from??. Those who are going to heaven or are childeren of God are not necessarily true WORSHIPERS?.That is ridiculous??The definition of the term worship includes OBEYING! Everyone does not have to obey????Mat 7: 21. "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Secondly, You have no understanding of what the house of Israel is, because you blow Jesus of, you blow Paul off and any other scripture that does not suit this twisting of scripture.Mat 3:9 "and do not think to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10. "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Allen "Dr. Neville Jones" <ntj005@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: My replies in green: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: (N) All you have to do to convince me on the "old" law being "done away with" is to quote me a Hebrew scripture where Our Father states this. But you cannot. . ( A) Jeremiah31:31 the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. NOT ACCORDING to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33. But THIS SHALL BE THE COVENANT that I will make with the house of Israel;....I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Allen, this is still in the future: (Rev 21:1 KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Rev 21:2 KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev 21:3 KJV) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Rev 21:4 KJV) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Jesus refers to this in John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and NOW IS, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. ???.. "True worshippers," yes, but this is not necessarily the "house or Israel." (N) (Mat 5:18 KJV) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. "Till all be fulfilled." "Till heaven and earth pass [away]." This scripture alone establishes my claim and is only contradicted by Saul of Tarsus and his followers ( A) "TILL ALL IS FULLFILED" ??You keep misssing the fact that all things HAVE BEEN FULLFIELD (See Above scripture ref )?.Jesus stated that he came to do just that?Mat 5: 17 I am not come to destroy, BUT TO FULLFILL and again THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASSTILL ALL IS FULFILLED????? If you had not missed it then you would not be trying to use that verse to support a position directly contradictory to the teaching of Jesus and the Prophets?. Okay, let us examine which understanding of Matthew 5 is the correct one, yours or mine: (Mat 5:18 KJV) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Mat 5:19 KJV) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Since Yeshuwa' says therefore in verse 19, he must still be talking of the law that he mentioned in verse 18. And what is he saying? Not to break even the least commandment of the law. Not a "new" law. He does not mention a "new" law. He states "the law," in verse 18, and "therefore ... [do not] break one of these least commandments" in verse 19. Neville. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page