# [geocentrism] Re: Regner concedes?

• From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
• To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
• Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:24:38 -0800 (PST)

```My comments to the 5 in blue ..........

j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:    Dr. Jones, A few responces in red. I am
really interested to hear Your and Allens Yea or nay to 5 statements I've
written far below.

JA...

Neville Jones <njones@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
JA,

Your second paragraph is quite a mixture of ideas and models, but your
essential argument, if I understand you correctly, is this: since the nightly
rotation always produces the same set of star trails, then it is not possible
for these to draw out another circle, because they are simply always in the
same place.

This is a subtle argument and I had to pray for guidance before I considered it.

My response is the following:

You and I take a 35-mm SLR camera each, mount them on tripods and place them in
our back gardens. One in your garden, wherever it is, and one in mine, such
that I cannot see your camera and you cannot see mine.

In the heliocentric system, the cameras move. In the geocentric system, the
stars move. Forget any motion of the World for now.

Now, unbeknown to me, you point your camera at a star and, unbeknown to you, I
point mine at a star (it does not have to be a different star, but the chances
are that it will be).

I rotate my camera through 360 degrees about an axis whilst the shutter is open
for one minute. I will obtain circular stars trails on the emulsion.

You rotate your camera through 360 degrees about a different axis whilst the
shutter is open for two minutes. you will obtain circular trails on your
emulsion.

Does the rotation of my camera affect in any way the image that you have
obtained on your camera? Does the rotation of your camera affect in any way the
image that I have obtained on my camera? The answer to both questions is 'no'.
I must agree, but I would point out that if your camera is pointed to a
different direction in the sky then mine, then we would record different star
trails. And combining our pictures would produce no useful knowledge.
These rotations are isolated. The stars are fixed in this system, so as long as
the two components remain isolated there is no way that the movement of one
camera affects what is recorded by the other.

We now let the World do the rotating while our cameras are in some (different)
way fixed to it.

So, instead of my rotating my camera, I fix the tripod to the ground and align
it such that the optical axis of the camera is parallel to the celestial polar
axis. I leave the shutter open for 6 hours, whilst the World allegedly rotates

The question is exactly the same: Does the image I am obtaining in any way
affect the image that you are obtaining? The answer again is 'no'. Remember
that this is the heliocentric system where the stars are fixed. I still agree,
but I would point out that if I fix my camera exactly as you descibe yours,
then we would record the same thing, maybe not the same portion of any
particular star trail, but if overlayed they would match up..

Night after night, the answer is the same. The camera motions are isolated.

But the same must be true in reverse, with you aligning the optical axis of
your camera with the ecliptic polar axis and allowing the camera to rotate
through 360 degrees over 12 months as the World allegedly trundles around its
orbit of the Sun. This will in no way affect what I see in the heliocentric
system, but you will still have produced the star trails about the ecliptic
pole if heliocentrism is correct.

Locking the camera onto the ecliptic pole is easy, we lock them on stars all
the time, and the ecliptic pole is just like a star position. (is the ecliptic
the same as the Annual axis?) The ecliptic is the plane that the sun/ earth
rotate in ( earth sun rotate path)  ..the annual axis is a line that projects
90o to that plane..(the axis lies 90 degrees to the path).if I did this, I
would record an annual trail. Locking the camera axis to the annual axis will
produce the annual trail. it does not matter wich axis you lock the camera
to....Thats why we get a nightly trail from a stationary camera but cannot get
an annual trail from a stationary camera. NO as i said it makes no difference
Also, if I lock my camera axis to any imaginary axis, I can produce annual star
trails for that axis. Only if that axis is in rotataion othweise the only star
trails you will see are ones that are on a real axis of rotation...
In talking to you and Allen. It has occurred to me that maybe I've
misunderstood a particular point. Let me spell out a few things that you each
can simply answer as true or not true. This should help me, or maybe help me
the other is saying. ;-)

Pleae respond true or not true to the following:

1) The demonstration of the "dual axis proof" is that the Nightly circle made
by polaris is exactly the same every day of the year and in the exact same
spot, when recorded by a camera that is stationary with respect to the ground
it is affixed too. true

2)  The demonstration of the "dual axis proof" is that the Annual circle made
by polaris is not evident, when recorded by a camera that is stationary with
respect to the ground it is affixed too, when pictures are taken at 24 hours
intervals. True for best results ( toatal blur if it existed) you should
probaly have 3-4 hours exposures every night with the 24 hour interval at
midpoint....

3)  The demonstration of the "dual axis proof" is that the Annual circle made
by polaris is not evident, when recorded by a camera that is stationary with
respect to the ground it is affixed too, when pictures are taken at 23 hour 56
minute intervals. False ,the dual axis proof uses 24hour interval exposures not
23.56, that will show nothing since there will be no rotation on any axis
except the nightly star trails one.....

4)  The demonstration of the "dual axis proof" is that the Annual circle
made by polaris is not evident, when recorded by a camera that is rotated to
stay parrallel with the annual axis, when pictures are taken at 24 hours
intervals. ? The camera will be in rotation, by defintion, every 24 hours it
does not require you to rotate anything...otherwise True....

5)  The demonstration of the "dual axis proof" is that the Annual circle made
by polaris is not evident, when recorded by a camera that is rotated to stay
parrallel with the annual axis, when pictures are taken at 23 hour 56 minute
intervals. False ...1. you dont rotate anything. The earth does the rotation
around the annual solar axis by defintion  ...2. Intervals, 23.56 min will not
show anything because the earth will have suposedly made a 360 degree rotaion
that suposedly negates the annual rotation....thus ~24 hour interval exposures
are required to satisfy any real rotational motion of the camera fixed to the
earth around the solar/ annual axis....

Neville

www.GeocentricUniverse.com

-----Original Message-----
From: ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 15:09:52 -0800 (PST)

Dr. Jones & Allen,

I appreciate your efforts, and I do wish to be back on board, however, the
more I look at it the further I am getting from accepting the Star trails
proof.

It seems to me that the proof, if correct, would not only demolish HC, but
would also demolish the possibility of that type of motion, IE... No planet
could rotate on an axis that is different from it's orbital axis. If the
nightly circle does not move through the sky during the year, how can it trace
out a larger circle? But the proof of the Nightly circle alone (anybodys proof)
shows that the nightly circle will always be in the exact same place, so the
motion must not be possible. But since other planets move with that motion (or
am I wrong), it must be possible and therfore something is wrong with the
proof. Break that logic Allen! ;-)

Now, the above was just a thought that occured to me while I was getting the
new drawings ready that you asked for. Hopefully these are easier to look at
and, since there are only 3, less confusing and time consuming. The first is
about the nighty star trail and the camera, the second and third are about the
annual star trail and the camera and why the annual does not work just like the
nightly.

JA....

---------------------------------
Prevent accessing dangerous websites - Protect your computer with Free Web
Security Guard!