From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [geocentrism] Re: Moon Rotation To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 8:46 PM Phil, The key to your whole post and very own experiment is that fact that the toothpick changes orientation wrt something.....well gee wiz......This makes my case but not yours..........There are no particles on the moon changing orientation wrt to anything... your example is a valid experiment that demonstrates a change in orientation... The moon nor any place or object on the moon is not? The reasons why and the forces involved in producing that change are irrelevant to the fact that the change has taken place ...now if you could just show us a point on the moon that changes wrt some other point that lay in the moon you would have it licked...the problem is motion any kind of motion must be relative to something else and in consideration of all other things.......well the moon does not change orientation wrt to earth.. only wrt the back ground stars the earth is the pivot or common point that those changes ...you cant have a rotation if there is no change wrt something else....and how many other things and where they are located wrt each other determines where and what the common point or axis of any and all relative Rotations are...if you do not have a relative rotation you certainly cannot have any real rotation..........as for your thoughts at the bottom MS does use the Graviational feilds as frames of reference for motion and lack thereofe...that is wahy they call them inertial reference frames......you know grav and inertia are one and the same in MS.....but all that goes back to the acceleration Points I raised a few months ago, and the difference between relitive and absolute motion ..is there such a thing we say yes...AC says not...experiment and logic are on our side... I Think i shall attempt to break for the holiday weekend :-) .........Happy thanksgiving everyone and for all those who don't celebrate it......happy days anyways........ --- On Thu, 11/27/08, allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Moon Rotation To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 6:45 PM From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [geocentrism] Re: Moon Rotation To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 8:46 PM Phil, The key to your whole post and very own experiment is that fact that the toothpick changes orientation wrt something.....well gee wiz......This makes my case but not yours..........There are no particles on the moon changing orientation wrt to anything... your example is a valid experiment that demonstrates a change in orientation... The moon nor any place or object on the moon is not? The reasons why and the forces involved in producing that change are irrelevant to the fact that the change has taken place ...now if you could just show us a point on the moon that changes wrt some other point that lay in the moon you would have it licked...the problem is motion any kind of motion must be relative to something else and in consideration of all other things.......well the moon does not change orientation wrt to earth.. only wrt the back ground stars the earth is the pivot or common point that those changes ...you cant have a rotation if there is no change wrt something else....and how many other things and where they are located wrt each other determines where and what the common point or axis of any and all relative Rotations are...if you do not have a relative rotation you certainly cannot have any real rotation..........as for your thoughts at the bottom MS does use the Graviational feilds as frames of reference for motion and lack thereofe...that is wahy they call them inertial reference frames......you know grav and inertia are one and the same in MS.....but all that goes back to the acceleration Points I raised a few months ago, and the difference between relitive and absolute motion ..is there such a thing we say yes...AC says not...experiment and logic are on our side... I Think i shall attempt to break for the holiday weekend :-) .........Happy thanksgiving everyone and for all those who don't celebrate it......happy days anyways........ --- On Wed, 11/26/08, Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: I Think i shall attempt to break for the holiday weekend :-) .........Happy thanksgiving everyone and for all those who don't celebrate it......happy days anyways........ --- On Wed, 11/26/08, philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Moon Rotation To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 3:26 PM #yiv1873026499 #yiv2019395373 #yiv916325177 DIV { MARGIN:0px;} slight correction. 3. At normal speeds. As a body moves in any direction, this motion does not alter the position of its centre of gravity.. therefore it must be accepted that any rotation around this centre of gravity is un perturbed by any other motion of the body. i.e. the centripetal/centrifugal forces, remain unchanged . (this centrifugal force is the only indicator of real rotation, as observation with our eyes can be an illusion) . ----- Original Message ----- From: philip madsen To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Moon Rotation Paul, I have been thinking more on a practical demo for this rotation model for the moon. I know Allen calls it imagination, but then that is what all text books are, but the graphical representation of imagined theory of operation. I know this is basic to you, but with all the complicated mumbo jumbo being floated, I need to make it clearer for the layman , who must be absolutely confused by now. Some base principles.. are in order .'' Keep in mind this is standard physics as demonstratable in any lab.. It does not include my exotic theories on the aether or concern itself with explaining geocentrism, which must fit with observable/measurable facts anyway 1. A body rotates around its centre of gravity. Where that is can only be presumed based upon calculation which accepts the constituents distribution of the mass of the body. It can be confirmed by actual observations of perturbations of orbits. A fairly accurate science as astronomical predictions often prove. Pretty good considering nobody but Jules has been to the centre of the earth to see what it is made of. 2. The rotation of the body is a motion experienced by the mass itself, and the magnitude of the effects of this rotation , ie the centripetal/centrifugal forces it experiences , is independent of any other object or observation. ie if there is no rotation there is no centripetal force. 3. At normal speeds. As a body moves in any direction, its motion does not alter the position of its centre of gravity.. therefore it must be accepted that any rotation around this centre of gravity is un perturbed by any motion of the body. i.e. the centripetal/centrifugal forces, remain unchanged . (this centrifugal force is the only indicator of real rotation, as observation with our eyes can be an illusion) . 4. From 3, it must be deduced that if a spherical body is set in motion around its axis through its centre of gravity, and kept in motion at exactly the same force, and rpm, and is then moved in an orbital path around a central point, it will continue to exhibit the same centrifugal forces due to initial rpm imparted to it. Now the moon needs no motor, as there is negligible friction to slow it down. 5. Further, if the orbital period just happened to be the same number as the rotational speed of the Sphere, then this coincidence will cause the sphere to present the same face to the centre of the orbit. This is a true mechanical representation .. There is no need for a primary planet if the motions are controlled on a bench top model .. In the case of the moon, it is a coincidence, ( God Planned) but in our experiment we can plan it to be that way. 6. But most assuredly, the centrifugal forces due to these rpm of the sphere will remain measurable and be exactly the same as they were when the sphere was revolving stationary before it was set in any motion. Keeping those basics in mind we now need to make a turntable , a record player is fine. Next we need a speherical mass like a marble that is vertically attached to a "frictionless " shaft through its central axis at the periphery of the turntable. Mark the marble so that any spin can be observed. Turn the turntable slowly.. You will see that the marble will not turn , but keep its face pointed in the direction it had at the beginning.. Of course the shaft friction will eventually effect this experiment. but the effect is proven . the marble will not rotate, and it will not present the same face to the centre as the turntable turns. This is not imagination I have done the experiment another way and proved it.. As can anyone interested. Hold a glass of water close to your chest . On the surface of the water is a floating toothpick pointing at you , just to let you see what happens to the water .. The friction between the water and the glass is negligible. Now turn yourself slowly a full circle if you want.. doesn't matter. You will see that the water will not rotate in the glass , and the tooth pick will keep its orientation..It will not keep pointing at you. In fact it is difficult to make the water spin this way. Now this tells you something else. I have long ago considered the forces involved here. Let us seize up the bearing in the marble with glue, so that it cannot keep its orientation. When you now turn the turntable, the marble will present the same face to the centre.. But what else? Can you not see the force being made to break the glue on the bearing, as the marbles inertia tries to keep its original orientation? Extra work is actually being done on the turntable to force the marble to spin. Now I will leave you all with a little thought experiment, which just occurred to me and which I havn't considered yet. How does relativity effect rotations.. keeping in mind the centrifugal forces mentioned above. Let us put the marble on the same central shaft of the turntable and spin them up to 100 rpm. The turntable will have a centrifugal force.. and the marble also will have its own centrifugal force due to its own mass. Now free up the marbles shaft and spin it in the opposite direction at exactly the same 100rpm. Will the marble appear stationary to us? Will its centrifugal force be any different? I think I got it already.... But then put the marble back on the periphery, and spin it up again in the opposite direction.... Philip. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Deema To: Geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 2:53 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Moon Rotation Philip M Some comments in <colour> From philip madsen Tue Nov 25 12:23:12 2008 Re: Moon Rotation Thats an ingenious idea Paul..<Ahem! Thank you ... thank you ...> Something I never visualised.. another way of twisting a cable? Now I know why my hose twists up as I walk around the yard watering.. I'll have to learn to retrace my steps .. Have you investigated the bank/money /Government borrowing scam yet? Your life does depend on it.. <I've read your 'Funny Money' and Open Letter to PM. I will try to put something together soon but it is something I'd prefer to spend a little time with. A warning though, I cannot support your position. I hope my reasoning will satisfy you even if your conversion is not complete.|[:-)> From philip madsen Tue Nov 25 14:30:19 2008 Re: Moon Rotation That actually is another proof I missed paul.. If the moon lost its primary, the earth, it would move off tangentally in a straight line, and it would keep its same rotation of 28 days for the Helioman and 24 hours for the geoman.. <Exactly so. See attachment prepared in advance and here revealed for the very first time!> This could be easily done on the kitchen table, by simply doubling the orbit diameter on the model, where in the moon would no longer show the same face, Paul D Start your day with Yahoo!7 and win a Sony Bravia TV. Enter Now