[geocentrism] Re: Magnitude of scale
- From: "philip madsen" <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:46:29 +1000
and even to this day my name is kept on a FBI watch list......Allen.
Blimey! Allen, are you allowed to fly?
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Daves
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 7:28 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Magnitude of scale
Paul,
Just curious ..when exactly did I offend your sensitivities?..when A. I
stated that I use the real thing too ..or B. when I said that I answered your
question for the third time.. and I even thought we were in some agreement.?
If you want to attempt to play Regners "game" by ignoring the very questions
you asked for and the relevant issues on the table by avoiding or ignoring the
person you don't like when they show you your error, that is your choice.
However, that approach is neither scientific nor is it authoritative.. It is
only foolish..
If you wish to defer to Regner, because he is a professional astronomer...
..then by all means let Regner "deal with me"... I was a professional in the
sciences too.....I will not tell you what I was,.. but I will say this... I had
one of the highest clearances in the country, direct access to the President of
the United states of America and even to this day my name is kept on a FBI
watch list......maybe I will be able to grasp his superior understanding.?
PS I post those last two post here so everyone can see that I did not avoid
you or your question..Just in case you forgot where we were in all of this...!?
So do I........except I actualy use it...
Paul Deema <paul_deema@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Allen D
I'd be careful about advising Regner to refer to a model. He doesn't need
one. He plays with the real thing!
Paul D
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Paul, I put the previous posting at bottom so you can see i have already
answered you over and over again...?
Allen D
Your response to my addendum -
What i said was right ..?..Each or both of earth's rotations in HC/AC are
about "an (singular) axis..?....There are two rotataions, each one is on and
has it's own axis(singular)..each individual axis is differnent from the other
axis. The two axis are not equivilent, in that they are not in the same
direction. However, they are both the exact same mechanical action/motion
(rotation about "an axis"[singular]) using the exact same stars and exact same
camera..and thus must produce the exact same observable effects...
Paul Deema <paul_deema@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Allen D
One point I made was not sufficiently defined. I said in my earlier post -
I can perceive only one axis of rotation --
The reason I perceive only one axis of rotation is because that is what
your statement said -
no differenece same action (rotaion about an axis) same stars,
Notice that -- "... an axis ..." . 'an' axis is one axis -- not two, not
many.
Paul D
OK The second thing we have reached agreement upon then is that in the
heliocentric model, the Earth both rotates about its Geographical Polar Axis
(which extended becomes the Celestial Polar Axis) (NCP)once per sidereal day
and revolves in its orbit around the Ecliptic Pole (NEP)once in 365.25 days
..YES.....while in the geocentric model, the Earth is stationary and the stars
rotate around the Geographical Polar Axis (which extended becomes the Celestial
Polar Axis) (NCP) once per sidereal day but no other (Rotataional
motion)motion..YES
If you agree to this, will you then proceed to answer my question (restated
with amendment) - I have already answered this question twice now, this will be
the third time..!? I will answere it here for the third time & include the last
post where i answered it for the second time..?
At this time, I pose the question, in the heliocentric model -- what would
be the effect of changing the Earth's attitude so as to bring its axis of
rotation NCP -- its Geographical Polar Axis -- into alignment with the Ecliptic
Polar Axis NEP?
I suggest that, in the heliocentric scenario, the effect of this change
would be to make the NCP the new focus of nightly star trails, all other
conditions previously agreed remaining true.
Two axis would still technically exist. However, since the baseline
distance between the two would have no noticeable effect on the size of star
trails because we are assuming that the stars are too far away to be affected
by such a small change....THEN.. The two would ~ act as one, in the sense that
you could not distinguish one from the other, because there would be no change
in angle from each other and since the diameter of rotation (earth around the
sun/ NEP/base line) would not affect anything there would be no way to tell one
from the other. The NEP & NEC would in effect appear to be ~ one and the same
thing....as i said before this is all very very irrelevant....Why?...This would
only and could only hold true if and only if the NCP & NEP were facing the same
direction. However, they are not according to HC/AC, and the size of star
trails are determined not by the base line but rather by the distance from the
axis of rotation. Since the axis face different directions the stars cannot
have the same distance. Therefore your argument is a futile exercise in "what
if", that dose not affect or determine any outcome of what we are discussing..
By now, even Regner if he is keeping up with these discussions, even he
should be able to see his very, very big, big problem, regardless of what model
he wants to believe in or insist upon. If he is honest, however, sooner or
latter he will have to acknowledge the answerer to his own question and so will
you Paul.Is geocentrism supported by facts? ..Absolutely!.. and HC/AC is
absolutely proven untenable!
I am attaching the diagrams again with the NCP & NEP marked for
everyone......
And that's it for tonight/morning.
Paul D
IF you will read my last post i have already covered this matterial you
keep asking me a answer to..?..here it is again......
Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Paul,
there are two central issues in this post.....i labled them one and
two.........All your other comments simply say look at the next ...so, i
did,...... Im placing the entire last post at the bottom of this post so the
full context will be avilible to anyone reading it without reasearching it....
1. I'll pause here till you respond on this question.
I will pause here till you address my question. Which question?.....the one
where you ask : I pose the question, what would be the effect of changing the
Earth's attitude so as to bring its axis of rotation -- its Geographical Polar
Axis -- into alignment with the Ecliptic Polar Axis?...?.I answered it in the
last post, even though it is a completly and an entirly irrelevant question
!?...I said ....(if you did that you would in effect only have one axis not two
axis, unless the baseline distance did matter).......There is a simple one line
answer which will lead to the next question. I have to do it this way -- if I
ask several questions in one post you'll bury the planet in paper in your
response on your own.
2. At this time, I pose the question, what would be the effect of changing
the Earth's attitude so as to bring its axis of rotation -- its Geographical
Polar Axis -- into alignment with the Ecliptic Polar Axis?
What? how do you change the earths axis or rotaion?...(if you did that you
would in effect only have one axis not two axis, unless the baseline distance
did matter) ..You cant change the axis or make them equivilant, therfore, this
"thought experiment" does not nor will not affect what is under discussion...We
are looking at the two axis that the earth does rotate on in the HC system and
how that must manifest itself in the sky..?.....the two axis do not "mask" each
other nor are they even capable of such in the HC/AC system... I don't care
what you call it -- it is a legitimate question.
NO Paul it is not a "legitimate question". The answer to this question does
not and will not and could not affect what we must observe now with the two
axis in HC/AC, as per HC, in order for the HC/AC position to be valid Your
question nor its answer will have any bering on that issue, nor could it.
However, what ever the reason is that you think it is relevant is probably also
the very reason you can't see the obvious.... Further the fact that you think
it is relevant demonstrates to me, regardless of your adamant declarations that
you do understand the mechanics, that in fact you obviously do not. If the base
line made a difference then there would be larger star trails annually if the
baseline does not then there would be no difference in the daily or nightly.
However, in any case, since the axis are pointing in two different directions,
that issue is moot. The reason why is that the size of star trails is dependent
upon the distance of the star from the axis of rotation. In the HC/AC model
there are two that point in different directions. As such, all the stars cannot
have the same distance from both axis simultaneously. The only way for the
stars to have the same distance from both axis simultaneously is if and only if
the two axis lined up with each other as you suggest. However, they do not.
That is killer fact, they don't!......Therefore the baseline distance and how
that might affect anything is irrelevant to this discussion and the effects in
question regardless of if the baseline distance would have an affect on the
size of nightly v annual star trails or not...!?Skip forward to the next
comment in this colour.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Paul, i comment in Blue .....
Paul Deema <paul_deema@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Allen D
Well the body of the text is getting untidy so -- a new piece of paper.
At this time we have agreed that so long as an object on the line of the
axis of rotation of the Earth (or the stars) appears in the frame of the
camera, then that point will be the centre of circular star trails recorded
providing only that the camera has a fixed relationship with the Earth.
As Neville J puts it -
We attach the camera to the ground we stand on and we leave it alone for
the period in question.
If, when we develop the film, there is rotation of the stars about an axis,
then either the World has rotated and the stars are stationary (HC), or the
stars have rotated in the opposite direction whilst the World is stationary
(GC).Right...so how do we know which is which?......The only way to know the
difference is to look for the secondary rotation that HC/AC DEMANDS..for the
earth and any camera attached to it.......Which if you can reign in your
enthusiasm -- I'll get to. But you always want to snow me with mountains of
hastily written stuff which if I were to respond to in kind and you responded
to my response in kind ... well we'd bury the planet in paper in a week.
But here is the sticking point (from the last post) -
It gets more difficult to visualise the other part. No it is not. It is the
exact same action, with the exact same stars, only a larger motion ..What is
difficult to visualise is the fact that we don't see it, when we see the other
for the same reasons, and yet you insist that it exist.......I do not concede
this point yet as there is a fundamental difference. no differenece same action
(rotaion about an axis) same stars, same camera... concede?..its a
indisputiable fact, if you wish to deny that, you can but that will allways be
the reason you cant fully appreciate the problem
In your comments above, I can perceive only one axis of rotation -- about
the Earth Geographic Polar Axis which when extended becomes the Celestial Polar
Axis... We can't go any further untill you can understand the camera fixed to a
spot on the earth is itself is not only in rotaion nightly around the NCP I
wonder just how many times I have to tell you that I understand that before you
believe me? Loook again at the statement I made above describing just where we
have reached. Please! but also it is in rotaion about the North Ecliptic
Pole/axis,(NEP) with a period/ rate of rotation of one year, around the sun.
.............This is what I'm leading up to. Please -- patience! Skip forward
to the next comment in this colour.
......I will address the rest of the post you we realy need to pause here
untill you can grasp this fact, which is a fact even according to HC/AC ..this
fact is HC's dogma not GC's
.....................If that roation realy existed it would produce trails
of stars around that axis not just the celesital pole axis. the rate of the two
rotations is different but the rotaion either exist or it does not. if it does
there must be a path of the star whoese arc is dependent upon the distance of
the star to that axis.....there is no way around this..The fact is there is no
other paths I have admitted that this is the determining factor in the focus of
star trails obtained from a stationary camera nailed to the Earth. All this is
summed up in Philip M's words -
... All of the stars as observed on earth rotate around the celestial axis
for no other reason than that the world turns. YES, that is the point! If the
world "turns" (the correct term would be rotate in either case) around the sun
then it would show up, the fact that it does not show up proves the world does
not "turn" about the sun. If GC is spot on then the stars rotate around this
celestial earth axis. If HC is spot on, then no stars rotate anywhere, NO, the
stars rotate around the earth nightly that is what produces star trails ..? and
certainly not around the ecliptic.... [Emphasis added].
Further down he alludes to changing the Earth's axis of rotation. At this
time, I pose the question, what would be the effect of changing the Earth's
attitude so as to bring its axis of rotation -- its Geographical Polar Axis --
into alignment with the Ecliptic Polar Axis?
What? how do you change the earths axis or rotaion?...(if you did that you
would in effect only have one axis not two axis, unless the baseline distance
did matter) ..You cant change the axis or make them equivilant, therfore, this
"thought experiment" does not nor will not affect what is under discussion...We
are looking at the two axis that the earth does rotate on in the HC system and
how that must manifest itself in the sky..?.....the two axis do not "mask" each
other nor are they even capable of such in the HC/AC system... I don't care
what you call it -- it is a legitimate question. Skip forward to the next
comment in this colour.
I suggest that, in the heliocentric scenario, the effect would be to make
the NCP the new focus of nightly star trails, The NCP is the focus of nightly
star trails..? all other conditions previously agreed remaining true. In the
geocentric scenario, the universe's axis of rotation would have to be changed
at the same time...?? what are you talking about?...In GC the universe rotates
on one axis only and produces one motion attributed to rotation...in HC the
earth rotates on two separate and distinct axis of rotation and must be able to
demonstrate both for the same reasons that the nightly one does...
I'll pause here till you respond on this question.
I will pause here till you address my question. There is a simple one line
answer which will lead to the next question. I have to do it this way -- if I
ask several questions in one post you'll bury the planet in paper in your
response on your own.
Paul Deema <paul_deema@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Allen D
Well I don't think anyone would say that I didn't try but I have to bow to
the inevitable. We achieved agreement on one -- uncontentious -- point after
many hours of effort. The book is not worth the candle.
Your tactics remain the declaration that your adversary's points are
irrelevant or without merit or are in outright error; the repetitive assertion
that you are right combined with statements of incredulous disbelief that he
doesn't see things the way you do; burying your adversary in mountains of
barely decipherable verbiage; plastic definitions; and an astounding
determination to avoid answering questions put to you. In short -- you won't
debate.
I doubt I'll be bothering you further.
Paul D
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