[geocentrism] Just butting in a little.
- From: "Philip" <joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:18:25 +1000
Nick, I can easily see JA's problem. Anybody's problem actually.
We do have Scripture. It standing alone is very complex and even seemingly
contradictory.
For example, If we take Mathew Chapter25, when Jesus separates the sheep from
the goats. Does he say, come all you who have been to confession and are in the
state of Grace of the Catholic Church, come into my heaven provided for you?
No
Does He say to the goats go ye into the eternal fires prepared for you, because
you died in sin outside the Catholic Church and failed to go to confession and
be in a state of Grace" NO!
If one were to take this chapter seriously, only the Good Samaritans will be
the sheep who are saved. The priests, the Levites , the Church goers, et al
who did not help the strangers in need, it is they who are lost.
One thing is certain here, is that He did not say to all the sheep and all the
goats ,, I died for all your sins, and you are all saved. Come into the
happiness I have prepared for you.
And on this day He did not say, You did not eat my flesh or drink my blood
,depart ye into the fires.
And on this day,He did not say,you did not sell all and give it to the poor, so
be damned with you.
Confusing Eh? How could I put my trust entirely in the meanderings of my own
intelligence and comprehension of ANY written word. Poor man indeed would I be
had I been born into the world a peasant before the age of the printing press
when a hand written scripture took almost a full lifetime of a man to write a
copy, and no one taught me to read anyway.
Poor man indeed, had I been born into a world where the only printed book I
ever saw was the Koran.
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Niemann, Nicholas K.
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 7:16 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus
JA,
Thank you for your opinions. Of course, that's all they are. Since you are
fallible, you are capable of being wrong on pretty much everything you profess.
You really don't know for sure, do you.
So, I'm letting you in on something. Christ established the Catholic Church
and He assured it that the successors to St. Peter would be infallible when
speaking to the whole Church on matters of faith and morals. This same
infallible Pope, in passing down Christ's teachings, has proclaimed infallibly
that there is no salvation for those outside of the Catholic Church.
You can ignore all of this and, as they say, be fat, dumb and happy in your
uninformed, fallible beliefs. Or you can with an open and honest truth seeking
heart and mind check out the actual claims made by the Catholic Church, with a
willingness to go where the truth actually leads you. It's your call. All I
can do is point out something you are clearly oblivious to. But realize, when
you actually do face Christ upon your death, and He tells you the same thing
I've just told you, you won't have the excuse of saying you had no way of
knowing.
Regards,
Nick.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:36 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus
Nick,
I appreciate your concern for my soul, but since I accept Jesus Christs'
sacrifice on the cross as payment for my sins and the method of my souls'
reconnection to God, I do not see why you should be concerned. It does not
matter what church I go to nor with whom I associate. Salvation is a gift of
Gods' grace and my imperfect actions and thoughts cannot change that.
Your concern for the soul of a christian because he's not catholic is one of
the reasons why I and others reject catholicism in the first place. I once
listened to a non-denomination sermon that questioned the salvation of
catholics. I didn't like that point of view either. No Pope or priest or church
holds the key to my salvation nor yours. Jesus and Jesus alone, holds that key.
As for God giving Infallibility to anyone, Jesus is the only one. Why would
God give such a gift to someone selected by men? God has always picked the one
no-one would expect. Such a thought seems an insult to God. Man forms a church
and elects a leader and man expects God to gift this man with Infallibility
when discussing God? This is backwards and upside down and wrong on every level.
As for Popes contradicting themselves, I wouldn't know. But if my salvation
depends on recognizing them or belonging to thier church or confessing to a
priest or any other worldly, superficial, or "works" based condition you want
to name, as seems to be required of catholics by their popes, then they have
contradicted Jesus. Don't you consider him the first Pope? And therefore, I do
not believe God has given this ability to the Popes.
JA
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
JA,
Thank you for your follow up and what I believe is intended by you as an
honest answer.
When you say you could be wrong, "just like everyone else", you really
don't know everyone else could be wrong, since you admit you could be wrong
anything. So, this is just your opinion, correct? And just the opposite could
be true. Wouldn't it make sense to diligently explore whether God has given
this infallibility to someone, such as the Catholic Pope. You have to admit
this could impact your salvation. Have you ever studied the first hand
Catholic claim to this from the actual Catholic teachings on it. You'll find
it is Biblically based. And you'll find the official teachings of the Popes
never have contradicted themselves. It's your soul, I'm just giving you fair
warning.
Regards,
Nick.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 5:25 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus
Hey Nick,
Yes, I could be wrong about anything I think, just like everyone else. I
pray for wisdom and the ability to see the truth daily. I expect this will be a
lifelong process and at the end will still be wrong about many things. In the
meantime, I will use the knowledge I have at the moment. Right now, in my
opinion, I don't think that it is part of God's current plan to give that
particular gift to any specific person and hasn't since the writting of the new
testament books. Since the word was finished, there is no more to say. But I
could be wrong.
JA
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi ja,
Since your answer was "Anything is possible for God except for violating
his own word." and since giving someone the ability to be infallible on
religious matters does not violate His Word, I'll take it that you are
logically concluding "yes" to my question, i.e. that it is possible God has
given a human today the ability to always be right when speaking on matters of
religious faith. Did I follow your logic?
But since the Pope is a human, he could logically be one of the
persons, except you say it is inconceivable that God is giving this gift to the
Popes, because you believe the Popes have erred.
So, the next question is whether it is possible you have erred and the
Popes are right. Can you answer this simple question. The question is whether
this is "possible", not whether it is so or not. Or are you claiming you are
infallible?
(You have brought up the Catholic question, as has Neville by his
outburst the other day by challenging 2000 year old consistent Catholic
teachings. I'm just following it thru, until Neville acuses me of somehow
initiating this and cuts me off as he did in the past when I followed up his
comments).
Nick.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 4:23 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus
I like logic questions so I'll take a stab at it. Anything is possible
for God except for violating his own word. I take it your pursuit of this
question is to convince others that the Pope could be infallible in his
pronouncements. While it is concievable that God might help someone along on
occassion in what they might say to someone, it is inconcievable that God is
giving this gift to the Popes because they have erred so much in the past and
rule over a church so steeped in bogus doctrine.
Now don't go off asking me to defend the catholic bogus doctrine claim, I
state it because that is what most any non-catholic christian thinks of
catholicism. So why would anyone holding that opinion, be convinced that the
popes are infallible simply because it could be possible?
If it were true that the popes were infallible then most non-catholic
christians would probably be catholics because the catholic church would be a
vastly different place. It would adhere to the teaching as found only in the
bible, because God would never violate his own word. Therfore, the popes are
not infallible.
Has any pope ever uttered a God inspired word? Everytime they quote
scripture, just like any other person.
Anyway, thats my logic on that question. Please don't let this start the
catholic/non-catholic arguements again. This was only to address the logic
involved in the question.
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Neville,
Is this a question you don't know the answer to or a question you just
won't answer because you know where the logic then leads. Please be honest.
Can almighty God do this today? I asked if it is "possible". Can the
God who created the universe also do this?
Regards,
Nick.
Nicholas K. Niemann
McGrath North Mullin & Kratz, PC LLO
Suite 3700 First National Tower
1601 Dodge Street
Omaha, NE 68102
402-633-1489 (Direct Phone)
402-952-1889 (Direct Fax)
402-301-3373 (Cell Phone)
nniemann@xxxxxxxx
www.mnmk.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dr. Neville Jones [mailto:ntj005@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 8:59 AM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus
This is not a question that I can answer.
Regards,
Neville.
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Sure.
Is it possible God has given a human living today the ability to
always be right when speaking on matters of religious faith.
Regards,
Nick.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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